Jenna Jeffries, Sales Enablement Coach and Trainer, sat with Africa Regional Host, Dave Nel, to go deep into the world of sales coaching.

Jenna and Dave explored a variety of topics, most notably:

  • The 70/20/10 development model
    • 70% of knowledge comes from experiential learning (doing it)
    • 20% from social learning (coaching, networking, mentoring)
    • 10% from formal learning (courses, training programs)
  • The latest Global Coaching Report from ICF.
    • ICF Global Coaching Report Take away #1 – The number of managers and leaders using coaching has nearly doubled.
    • ICF Global Coaching Report Take away #2 – The biggest obstacle to  coaching are untrained people who call themselves coaches.
Read our our thoughts on Sales Coaching.
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Audio Transcript

Dave Nel
All day. And finally, the time has arrived. Jenna, I’m so excited to have you on our show today. Welcome to the coffee collaborator and enablement. It’s wonderful to see you again, would you mind sharing just a little bit about yourself and the business that you work for, for our listeners,

Jenna Jefferies
thanks for having me on the on your on your podcast. I’ve also been really excited about it, you really made me wait all day to get to five o’clock. But I have, I work in a small business called milestone coaching. And I’ve been doing coaching and for a number of years now for the last three years, but I also collaborate and diamond associate our brain sales training organization. And I think for me, it’s you know, it’s a real magic space for me because I get to bring my passion for sales, which I’ve which I’ve had for, you know, a number of years when cimiez before this, I worked in corporate RCT sales for global systems integrator. So I come with that background, but my passion and my purpose really is huge coaching to really help people move forward to where they want to get to before the potential so I get the ability to do both of those things. So that’s really where I’m at at the moment. And I also get to work with adults, you know, in adult learning, which is, which is interesting. It’s definitely easier than trying to coach your children through homeschooling, which I think lots of people on that on the call today can identify with.

Dave Nel
I work with a few adults that were challenged, I must be honest. Yeah, that’s an interesting, interesting perspective. But you know, I hear that you’re passionate about sales coaching. And also, you’ve been a sales person for for a significant amount of time. I think you said 14 years. So you have a unique perspective, which which I’m really keen to, to dive into. For me, I wonder what are some of the key things to remember when you’re coaching sales people? I mean, you’ve got both sides of the coin. So if you’re talking to those sales coaches or sales enablement guys out there, what are some key things when coaching sales people specifically?

Jenna Jefferies
So so that is a really interesting question. So I would say that one of the things I strongly subscribe to is that 70 2010 development model. Now, if you for those who haven’t maybe heard it before, it’s a general guideline for organizations who are trying to maximize the effectiveness of a learning and development progress. And what it tells us is that same 2% of our knowledge for sales professionals, or just professionals in general, 70% of that knowledge comes from experiential learning. So new challenging experiences and assignments that you get people to do. Ultimately, we become competent, what we need to do by doing no, by performing the things that we need to learn 20% of that, that knowledge or learning comes from social learning. So from relationships, interactions with others, things like coaching, mentoring, and networking communities, which I think’s really suffered at the moment. And then 10%, the remaining 10% comes from formal learning, so your your courses, your classes and training programs. And so, you know, you’ve got to gain the knowledge somehow. But that’s only a small part of the process. And I think for me, when I really started understanding this model, I realized, so you can train people well, but it’s what you do with them when they leave their training room, that makes the difference. And I think that’s where sales coaching for me plays such a huge role. Because a lot of the time, it’s like drinking up a fire hydrant, as we say you’re learning a huge amount of information, but you don’t always practically know how to apply it. So from that perspective, you know, in terms of adults, we actually do learn based from a combination of experience, reflection, experimentation, and often a sales coach really helps to take us along that process, because we’re also dealing with, you know, our egos and and struggling to feel vulnerable about learning new skills. And sometimes we also resistant to learning new things as salespeople as adult learners. So that’s where your sales coaching and and the training work. So hand in hand. Yeah, and I think for me, the biggest thing, in terms of in terms of bringing this together is that, you know, when we when we, I mean, I posted a stat today about the ICF global global coaching program, the 2020 report, and at the same that, that almost it’s almost double, I’d have just get the exact stat here, but it’s almost doubled in terms of the number of managers and leaders who are starting to use coaching, bringing coach into the fall. So that shows you that people think it’s important. We know it’s an important way of getting people to take on this and learn experientially and bridge this gap. But we have to remember that we sometimes pushing our sales leaders or managers into positions that they’re not comfortable with. Because, you know, we are good at giving advice, but we’re not great at active listening skills, asking incisive questions. We were chomping at the bit to give the answer. But we don’t know how to do that. And I think for me, that’s one of the biggest parts is getting our leaders to understand They own developmental gaps and competencies, and getting used to the fact that they don’t have to always give advice, but they’re doing a great job really equipping their people. And ultimately, Dave, I mean, I think the impact for me, bridging that that sales coaching sales training gap is that if you if leaders can actually understand how powerful it is to coach the people and get people to believe in themselves, these people are professionals, we recruited them, because we think they’re good enough for the job. But when we, when we build them up and give them the skills and get them to really get to grips with what they’ve learned, then the results start to take care of themselves. You know, and I think that’s, that’s really, for me what the power of sales coaching is, and we I see having been a salesperson, how it can make a really big difference.

Dave Nel
When that’s 70 2010, it often feels I know, for me as a sales enablement professional, that 10% is 100%, we spend so much time and energy on that formal learning. And then forget about the other 90% it’s just crazy.

Jenna Jefferies
It’s crazy. And you get exposed, sorry, if you get exposed to an idea. So you go on to training and you get exposed to an idea, once within 30 days, you’ve got less than 10% chance of retaining that idea or that information. Whereas in that process afterwards, the first 30 days are critical. And in their in their first 30 days, if you can expose people to the same idea multiple times, you’ve got over 90% chance of them remembering the concept and being able to apply it. Yeah, and I mean, right there, we started start immediately talking to return on investment in terms of sales training. And really, at the end of the day, that’s the return on investment, one of the things our executives want to know, you know, they want to see that the money they’ve spent on training is rekindled.

Dave Nel
So of course, I mean, I get it, I mean, you know, in the last month and with trust enablement, we spoke we focused a whole month just on coaching, because it’s become such a integral part to performance or to enabling performance in in your sales people. But one thing that you just touched on, which I just want to highlight is, you know, sales coaching is not just something you decide today, I’m going to be a coach, and you mentioned those ICF competencies. And, and really, you know, if you are deciding to to make that shift in your leadership team, you have to give them the tools and the skills themselves to actually coach because, you know, it’s it’s a skill, and it takes time to learn. You’ve had many, many years of doing that before just jumping in.

Jenna Jefferies
And you know what I think and I know exactly what you’re saying. And I suppose the one thing I always find interesting about coaching, which I suppose always keeps me hungry to become a better coaches that you always say the more you know, the more you realize how little you know. And so you know, it’s a it’s a you want to just keep going. But just to your point, you know, I think you bear going back to that ICF report that the second the second thing they said was the biggest obstacle for coaching over the next 12 months, is having untrained individuals who call themselves coaches. So that poses a huge onus on sales enablement or whoever else to HR, whoever it is to provide the coaching that these managers and leaders actually need. And to know, you know, you’re not going to be competent after doing a program. And that’s going to take time. And I think that also places text takes the responsibility off your shoulders.

Dave Nel
I mean, it’s true that that 70 2010 rule doesn’t just apply to salespeople, that applies to the coaches that you’re upskilling. You know, they need that same split as well. You know, that whole ecosystem around them. So interesting. I know, I know that today, we’re speaking to lots of sales enablement professionals. So we got lots of them on the, on the call today and lots of people listen to this podcast and, and often we get involved in setting the methodology, you know, the way that the business sells or the sales philosophy. And I can you talk to me a little bit about the link between, you know, what these coaches who are out there upskilling people, and then the business has got this philosophy or this methodology that they’ve adopted, and you mentioned rain sales training, how important is that link? between the two? I

Jenna Jefferies
think I think the link between the two is absolutely critical because and I’m going to talk about it I think multiple times during the conversation, but embedding it sales methodology or philosophy into your culture is absolutely critical. Everybody in the organization has to live, breathe and eat and sleep this this culture, and this philosophy that you bring in. And and the one thing I must say is when you bring a new philosophy or methodology on board, it’s not about thinking we’re doing a new training initiative, you have to view it as a change management initiative. And I think it’s really important to understand we’ve spoken about adult learners, you know, and especially well doesn’t matter what you’re doing, but lots of adult learners are deeply entrenched in habits and behaviors. And when ways of doing things that, you know, over the years have served them well. And suddenly, you’re telling them to try something new. And they’re thinking Hang on a sec, this is work for me, I don’t want to, I don’t need to learn something new. So that’s the first thing a change management initiative. But in my experience, what often happens here around this methodology or philosophy is that it has to start with leaders and managers, because I’ve run a number of programs, and they’ve been coaching or training programs where we’ve had leaders of the athlete and the initial meetings going, yep, let’s do this, let’s go, they sign off the budget, they’re really excited. But they don’t take part in the training. They don’t commit to doing coaching afterwards, they don’t follow up. Even though we’ve got metrics that we’ve agreed up at the outset, they kind of like loose, loose the use the use the idea that we’ve got to go back and check that those metrics work, you know, at the check that their progress against those. And so I think that for me around bringing anything new, and from a sales enablement, professional perspective, as making sure you bring those leaders along, because they sometimes don’t understand the, you know, or make the time and or understand the commitment that’s involved from their side, at front, because leaders need to become experts, they need to be the guys who are the evangelists about our philosophy, they’re the evangelists, about our sales methodology. And if they aren’t leading from the front, you really got potential for the, you know, the wheels to start to start coming off. And so that, for me, is critical. I think, you know, as you alluded to earlier, there’s, for me, there’s two parts to sales coaching, and this and, you know, this is really the part that I that I play, and part of my interact, you know, involvement of reigned, we do this on program. So, initially there is coaching the sales managers with the right skills to coach and then enabling the sales managers as the second part to coach these sales people, you know, to reinforce the concepts or the principles of the middle of methodology. But I always think that if you can, if you can start working in a parallel process to equip your leaders and your managers, as well as the in bringing your your people along, whether it be sales trainer, whether it be anything else, your managers have to be on board, and they have to lead from the front, otherwise you Yeah, you know, you just get an inconsistent approach. And sometimes that’s word feels.

Dave Nel
I want to ask, getting those leaders on board is so important. Do you have and I know, there’s many of them, but some ideas around just one or two things that that you would do to do that. Because it’s key. Without that, you’re right, it’s just some event that was launched somewhere, never goes anywhere, never sticks. Yeah, and I don’t know your experience, if there’s anything you would do.

Jenna Jefferies
Just one other thing. And it also just depends on the people within the team. But I think one of the things is, there’s the old psycho psychological, getting them to think it was their idea in the first place. Getting people’s buying is really, really important. But getting the commitment is probably the next level, we all buy into the idea. We know it’s a great idea, but it’s about that bridging the gap to commitment. And if you can get them involved in the planning process upfront, and really start to get them to talk about what would the impact be for them, or being able to reach this new reality that they see for their team for their departments, you know, getting them to understand the impact of that, I think is really important. And that gets done way upfront before you choose a vendor, before you decide how you’re going to roll this thing out. And so you almost have to do a sales pitch on them in a sense that you have to bring them along in the process. Because when they understand the impact of watch, a training or a sales enablement, initiative can bring to them and change the organization, then you really start, then you really start getting them on board. And that starts to change the dynamic from the beginning.

Dave Nel
I love that difference between, you know, buying versus commitment to incredibly different things. But maybe sometimes you might think they’re the same, but they’re very different at the end of the day. Now, Gemma, I know that when people are lucky enough to be coached by you, or have any consulting by you, you value the focus around adding value to that person in 90 days. That’s your thing. 90 days, if you can’t do it, what’s the point? Can you tell us a little bit more around this 90 day timeline? That’s for you, is that almost that golden number?

Jenna Jefferies
Absolutely. So, you know, 90 days, I mean, you know, we always talk about how quickly it how quickly Australia tends to develop a new habit. But 90 days is the minimum amount of time it takes to make new complex skills or behaviors that you want to learn or, or be trained in to develop those into habits. And I think that’s the most important thing because, you know, if you think about how hard it is to change ourselves, first and foremost, you decide you’re going to start running you want to train for a marathon or whatever it might be to get up in the morning every day when you have to wake up and it’s dark and rainy and cold and you thinking My gosh, it’s so hard that if we think about how hard it is to change ourselves, we’ve got to consider the same for the people that we working with. So because we’ve got those two sets of habits that we’ve got to change, you know, the coaches developing new skills, and the sales, people needing to learn how to apply those skills, the bottom line comes down to habits, and it comes down to how we productively apply what we learned, because no matter what you learn, if you can productively apply it and and develop the right kind of habits around that, it’s not going to work. So So the 30 days is a bit of a focus, there’s a bit of three focuses. So in the first month watch, my focus is really around is ensuring that anyone who’s been trained or working on a program, or even if you’re just doing a coaching program with me, and we working on some new skills, and habits that you need to need to change, because you set some goals, if you get people on track in the first 30 days, then you can start, you know, you can start making the change. But if you don’t, if you don’t make an impact in that 30 days, you know, those old habits, they come back in, because you’ve got back into the office and 70, you are confronted with the standard old man’s age, and it’s crazy. And so you just go straight back into what you were doing before. So that’s the first 30 days. And also going back to, you know, making sure you reinforce concepts a number of times and that first 30 days, it’s that retention of information. And then in the second 30 days, you almost focus on now we’ve got some of those basic things in place, you focus on pushing your coachee or your sales professional whoever, to really push the productivity to the extremely limited around that, you know, you want to get them to understand the potential and you want to tap into their potential so that they don’t, they then start seeing a new way of doing something and those old behaviors don’t come back up again. And then in the third 30 days, and the last 30 days, it’s really around in building the skill. So focusing on, you know, that new way of productivity, and making those kind of new behaviors permanent. And if you can stay with it for 90 days, well, then you are you you pretty on board with it, you just have to be consistent about it. I love that. So that’s really the 90 day that’s the 90 day rule, I

Dave Nel
love it, you’re speaking to my favorite philosophy or saying which is hope is not a plan. And, you know, I just hope this coaching is gonna pay off I just hope this habit is going to work and, you know, what a structured and and thought out plan just for 90 days, you know,

Unknown Speaker
it’s not,

Dave Nel
you know, it’s not for the next three years take little skills, little habits, little behaviors, and then and then sequentially break it down. I mean, that’s, that’s absolute gold. Now, we don’t have a while you’re talking to lots of people from Africa. And, you know, a lot of other businesses that and people that listen to us are small businesses that don’t have huge coaching budgets and big sales enablement, teams and, you know, able to buy methodologies from one of the big players and implemented into their process. So, you know, if you’re one of those guys, who do still want to make the shift to do still want to be able to capitalize on coaching and and see a shift in their salespeople. What, what advice would you give to them? Because they might be listening to this video a little hopeless? I don’t know. So what would you say?

Jenna Jefferies
So, so I just want to start by saying that even sometimes those bigger organizations who invest vast amounts of money in sales, training and new methodologies, they get it wrong, because there’s a whole lot of all these various reasons why. So don’t think that because you haven’t got a lot of money to buy a new program or to go on expensive training that you that you aren’t going to succeed. I don’t think that’s right. And in fact, sometimes when we spend money at these, these these big approaches and these big programs that often masks that you’re just not getting the basics, right. And that’s not going to change because it’s about behavior. So here’s a couple of things. So there’s about more, I’ve got about five things that that people can consider. So if you’re a small business, or you know you are and you’ve got unlimited resources, time, people money, you want to keep it, you want to keep it simple and sustainable. So I mean, let’s go back to the Pareto principle, you know, 20% of your effort is going to reach to 80% of your results. So in other words, spend time on the activities that are going to bring you the biggest deals in return for the time that you spend on it, whether it’s how you decide to prospect for new business, put a campaign together, make it make it a well thought out process that you can reuse time and time again, for those businesses, anything you do, whether it be a coach or a proposal, any process that you’ve got tried templatized those processes that takes an enormous amount of effort and energy to keep going back and thinking how do we do this differently this time. Just standardize your approaches, make them repeatable, and then when you see that on work, then you just tweak them instead of you know, trying, trying to start again. There’s an enormous amount of online content out there so you can almost overwhelm yourself, but there’s lots of great resources around you know, sales blogs, lots of organizations. I am going to use rain here because I I’m always amazed by how much IP they give out for free. And it’s available on the website, if you subscribe to this stuff. Now, there’s a lot of organizations who do that. And it’s really valuable stuff. So you just got to go and find credible resources. And then just go back and tap into those time and time again, follow them, you know, read their blogs, there’s always things to inspire you, if you don’t necessarily have the ability to buy a new methodology. But just to really keep you informed and inspired, I think it’s important. And the third thing is to really be proactive and plan well, so it does not matter what you’re selling, but during every single stage of your sales process, you need to keep your commitments. You know, earlier, we spoke about trust, you need to keep your commitments you need to communicate well with your with your customers, whether it be written or verbal, you know, things like sending an agenda before a meeting, sending out an email afterwards, to follow up on key points that you discussed. Just do what you say you’re going to do and make it easy for them to trust you. And they are going to come back and do business with you time and time again. I think then, the fourth thing, really knowing your customer and understanding their business, you’ve got to put your customer first I know sales people, we’ve got numbers to make, and there’s pressure, but we are never going to make those numbers if we don’t let our customers genuinely believe we actually care about and we really understand the business and what their needs are. Otherwise, we’re not going to sell anything, you know, so we’ve got to resonate with them. We’ve got to meet their needs. And we’ve got to be curious about about them, you know, they know when we being insincere. So ask good questions, plan, what you’re going to have in the meeting, when you have the work, what questions you’re going to ask when you have a meeting with them. And really make sure when you have those meetings that you bring something of worth to them. You don’t need a sales methodology to do that. I mean, it’s really about getting the basics right. And then really, the last two things aren’t knowing your value proposition. You need to be able to communicate, why why your customers need to buy from you what’s the value of your product or service.

Dave Nel
Absolutely,

Jenna Jefferies
not just features and benefits, I think we become great at product knowledge, features and benefits that we can’t articulate the value in hearts, the impact is going to have on that on that customer. And I think that’s really important. And then finally, it doesn’t actually matter what approach you choose, you got to train your people, you know, if even if you have the simplest products, train your people, make sure you embed that sales, philosophy or whatever it is you choose into your culture and lead from the front. I think that’s really, really important. People want will will follow good leaders. And I think when you’ve got leaders who are coaching their people, and not just seeing them as maybe sales people, but you know, poll individuals, so you’re dealing with the growth and development and what’s important to them, then it doesn’t matter what sales philosophy you’ve got, because your people are going to follow you and you’re going to have loyal, loyal and people in your team, and they’re going to make a difference. They’re going to sell because they care. And that’s really it. That’s what I was saying.

Dave Nel
I love that. And again, you know, the like train your people that last point 70 2010 and that’s gonna stick with me, you’ve given me a new a new slogan, hey, constantly using that. So thank you for that. And, you know, I guess the other thing that I would point out is that five or six simple things, regardless of how big or smaller businesses, and you know how big or small your budget is, that can make a significant difference in enabling your sales people. So that’s absolute gold. Thank you. Jelena one last question on that for our our guys in Africa. And I guess probably you might see it globally, I’m interested for you to share with us any challenges that you see really facing sales enablement, at the moment in any kind of things that we have around that that you think might help.

Jenna Jefferies
Yes, absolutely. So I think the biggest sales enablement challenge I’m seeing at the moment, and I suppose it goes from salespeople and managers all the way through the to the other sales enablement professionals is that people are struggling with virtual. So there is that that, you know, there is the, as we always call it, presume they’ve got a bad name here, but zoom fatigue, you know, we tired of virtual interactions. However, what I find so amazing is that how often I have meetings with a person who isn’t even looking at the screen, they’re all over the show. So you know, and also the thing with virtual is that it shows up the things we don’t do well, very easily. It’s you know, it’s almost cast the spotlight because we don’t get the relationship building coffee beforehand and all of that. So, so. So virtual selling, you have to equip your people on how to sell virtually, and there is a lot of information out there. But primarily get them to understand and operate the virtual platform that you’re working on, whether it’s teams, whether it’s Skype, whatever it is, whether it’s to get them to know how to operate that because that’s your first interaction, turn the camera on, there’s some real basics around virtual selling. And then going back to those points that I just said about getting the basics right, you have to plan and really, really be prepared for virtual meetings because you know, when someone stops speaking and it’s just staring at you, that that silence that silence feels like it’ll last forever, so severely is I think our biggest sales enablement challenge right now. And I’m not sure how it’s got it when it’s going to go away, or if it’s going to stay in degrees, because some people really lag virtual. So we just got to become better at how to do it, how to use the platform and and just be more prepared.

Dave Nel
It’s definitely, in my mind is definitely here to stay. The question is how much? You know, so that that’s interesting. And someone said to me the other day, the number one virtual rule, your client should never say, Jenna, you’re on mute. Like that is just absolutely unacceptable. And they said no, there’s a whole bunch of other things that are there. So you’re spot on, it’s, it’s something that happens so quickly. You know, and a year or so is a relatively short timeframe for such a big change to happen in in selling and I don’t think we’ve quite figured out always how to equip our sales people to deal with that you You’re absolutely spot

Jenna Jefferies
on. But that’s why managers can spend time you know, in your virtual anyway, so so when you when you have a sales meeting, say Dave, look at the camera, you need to understand where you need to be looking, you know, and get and that’s a, it’s a great opportunity to coach your salespeople on how they come across, you know, I know no one likes to look at themselves on a camera. But I mean, put put the screen on and have a look at yourself in the surroundings around you. And you know, and just some of the basics really, you know how easy to get past that and, and it’s just a confidence thing to start. Yeah. And then once you once you rolling, you’re doing well.

Dave Nel
I never thought of that using your your team meetings as a coaching opportunity around virtual selling. That’s, that’s very interesting. Definitely something to take up, obviously, your leaders, your managers need to know what to look for. So I guess we also need to make sure they’re equipped, just like me to make sure they’re equipped to coach. One last thing this has been Yeah, it really has been the highlight of my day, it was worth waiting for I’ve, I’ve learned so much today from you. But take a minute to brag, I’d love for you to share with our listeners, one or two things that you’ve done over the last little while, or in your career that really stands out for you that, you know, wow, that was something that made the biggest impact, the biggest shift. And you’re incredibly proud of I don’t know, if you if you’re willing to share I know people don’t like to boast. But I love hearing stories. So if you don’t mind, you know, I

Jenna Jefferies
think it’s in fact, this thing happened last week. And I’m and I’m not even sure it’s a brag mode. But it’s really a something I’m just so immensely proud of this team that I was working with. We have you know, there really had training during the midst of COVID. And it was a really difficult time. And they had some, you know, they had one or two people who were really seasoned sales people. I mean, the one guy was two years away from retirement. And so you know, to start with there, but you know, he specifically was a bit higher rolling, and oh, my gosh, why do I need to know this, I’m gonna leave and she has time. But he was really responsible for some really big accounts. And, you know, I just watched up with with the training, you know, you just kind of know how to work with people. And so if we started asking him questions, and and he started having fun in the training, which was the starting point. But the sales coaching really resonated with him. Because I also think, because he was close to retirement, I think he was feeling very confident in his ability to learn new things, which I only realized afterwards because he hit it really well. But by the end of the of the program, I mean, he was honestly our evangelist, I mean, he would be coaching other people on how to do things, and they never had that mistake, you know, you need a job like this. And so it almost became a bit of a joke that if we could convert this guy, we could convert anyone. So so he was, I think, our biggest, our biggest success. And you know, even he said, You know, I’ve only got two years left, but if I’m doing this, all of this stuff way back, and I just realized the impact of having conversations like this, I would have had way more success in sales. And so I think in these last two years, he’s really having fun doing his job, which I think for some people, it’s kind of like they’re winding down, you know, where as he says, he’s just, he’s just turning out, you know, turning up the volume. And then, you know, in that same team, I think the other thing that was a, that was a great success for us was, you know, that had a lot of change in management. And they’d had a previous manager who really done some damage and executive relationships with some of the key customers. And we just spent a lot of time coaching some of those behaviors. And in fact, they’re nearly in the midst of the program, they nearly lost a 25 year business partnership, which was worth it was one of the anchor customers and so through the coaching process, we actually help to to be to rebuild that relationship. And last week, they told me that they had won the tender for another five years. So I mean, that really made me so excited. I was just ecstatic that they were able to turn that around and you know, that’s just the power of people being committed to a process and and really giving it their all and I think that that’s really the for me, what’s what I’m most excited

Dave Nel
about. They’re lucky they’re lucky to have had you there at that point in time. And and I think also someone He trusts that the answers in the room and and the coach just facilitates that. Right that No, I don’t think the whole room turned to Jenna and said, Listen, Jenna, you’ve got to sort this out what it was actually did.

Jenna Jefferies
But I mean, you know, as you said, you’re talking to the whole creating a thinking environment within teams. And that’s another thing around coaching. I mean, that’s a whole nother conversation by itself. But creating that thinking environment and relying on the fact that your people in your team, the people in the room have got the answers and just giving them the permission to, to share the ideas with art, you know, without any risk of anyone laughing, I think is a really, really powerful thing. You can do 14. Yeah, look, I can.

Dave Nel
I can highly recommend, and you’ve mentioned that a few times you even use the word incisive questions, I can highly, highly recommend anticlines time to think I mean that that book is an absolute game changer for any any leader actually anybody really. It’s just it’s just such a useful thought process of how to get the best out of out of others. Absolutely. It has been an absolute pleasure having you here today. Thank you so much for sharing with us. And I’m sure that there are going to be many people who would love to reach out and learn a little bit more about the things that you’ve done. I’m sure they can feel free to contact you. And we will definitely have you back again soon. Thank you so much, Dave. Thanks so much.