Rose Penhasi,  Founder & Sales Operations Consultant at ScaleOps, joined Israeli Regional Host, Avner Baruch, to share Sales and Revenue Operations insights on how these disciplines can aid in business success.

The ScaleOps Hierarchy provides a guide for how to get to the powerful automation and dashboards everyone is looking for.

  1. Starting from data.  Data drives everything.
  2. Processes. Without the right processes, automation efforts are worthless.
  3. Dashboards and Automation.  Once data and processes are in place, you can start to tackle dashboards and automation.

There is a lot of great insight from both Rose and Avner in this episode, give a listen.

Audio Transcript

Avner Baruch
Hey, everyone, I’m delighted to have today rose, who’s going to talk about sales operations, revenue operations and the magic that she applies throughout the sales cycle. Rose, could you start by telling us a little bit about yourself? What keeps you busy today?

Rose Penhasi
So of nerd Thank you, first of all for inviting me.

Avner Baruch
The pleasure is all mine, of course.

Rose Penhasi
Thank you. So, yes, as you said, I’m rose, nice to meet you. And I, I started around 10 years ago, I started my career path around 10 years ago. I started as a sales operations or business operations in, in commerce, and learned everything about this role and then moved to work in startups, cybersecurity startups. And after working for a while with companies, large enterprises and startups I, I just established my company scale ups three years ago. And since then, we are working with companies outsourcing sales, operations, and revenue operation services. Working as well with partners from the marketing agencies and cacau media is one of our partners as well, and HubSpot, as well as a partner. And we are focusing on having more attention on revenue operations, building the all cell structure revenue structure in inside of companies sales processes, helping the sales people to focus more on sales and doing less operational tasks, which increase eventually their revenues in the company. Today,

Avner Baruch
I totally connect with that, because nobody likes that overhead. It slows us down. It’s, it weighs us down. And I mean, from from reps point of view, you know, they want to spend as little time as possible, you know, fitting information into either Salesforce, whatever, you know, says was HubSpot, whatever CRM they’re using. And, and most of them in most cases, they’re not using just one single application, the entire digital tech stack from a sales point of view is becoming more and more intense and complicated. And that requires a lot of time. And nobody likes to invest or to waste time on processes, which basically require people to fill in information that, you know, you would assume that technology today would probably automate that. And, you know, take ownership of the process of listening to whatever you say, and the prospect says, and then feeding that information straight into, you know, the CRM and other applications that build together your sales, tech stack. So having someone like you that, you know, comes in and understands where are the gaps, I’m basically taking your part in this conversation, I want to continue with that, I’ll let you do that. But I just want to point out that I feel I really strongly feel that that pain of you know, let’s pose everything that we do and, and start, you know, clicking all those annoying buttons, we have to click in order to move on to the next school next step, you know, building my pipeline.

Rose Penhasi
So yes, and by the way, revenue operations or sales operations was more familiar in big companies in large enterprises in the past, and it’s becoming more and more famous role in the startup scene as well now, so yeah, so we met acquired good education, like us and other people in the industry as well. So it’s amazing.

Avner Baruch
You know what, let’s actually pose right here, because you just started a very important point, I can actually see, you know, how revenue operations and even revenue intelligence and they share a lot of common ground. It’s gaining a lot of popularity today. From enablement point of view, and from, you know, sales operations point of view. I see that surfacing more and more on social media like, you know, mainly LinkedIn. more jobs, mentioned requirements that has to do with sales ops, in revenue ops and revenue intelligence. Can you elaborate on that a little bit like if there is any difference between sales ops and revenue officer, what is revenue intelligence, etc.

Rose Penhasi
Yeah, so theoretically, there is a difference between sales operations and revenue operations. We are trying to focus on the old revenue cycle. So we like to call it more as a revenue operations because you’re not doing or focusing on the on cells. You’re also dealing with the marketing and aligning the marketing to cells. You’re also trying to figure out and be The process after the deal is closed one, and you want to have like some kind of an onboarding process or customer success process. So it’s not only about sales, so it’s not the right thing to say sells. And there is also there is also a trend, I would say in the last couple of years, that companies are more and more hiring crls, which are chief revenue officers, and having them managing the overall marketing sales and customer success departments. And then you would have like all teams aligned together with like, with the revenue goal. So I want like, from our perspective, sales operations and revenue operations are designed because we’re quite like, in our minds, but basically, theoretically, there is a separation like there is a difference between revenue operations and sales operations. Yes.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, yeah.

Avner Baruch
But by the way, again, you touched a very important point that, in most cases, sales ops focuses just just on the on the sales part of the, of the journey, which normally starts at marketing, and then moves on to, you know, I call I like to call that retention to retention business unit, some people might refer to that as the customer success, management, you know, unit or business unit. And some might recall that like, you know, whoever takes part in the process of maintaining the customer’s business, and then you know, making every possible move in and taking every possible action in order to expand the account. So the whole journey starts with marketing, you know, moves across the sell sagen No, and Danny Dan’s up at the customer successful retention business unit, and we have to see that as one journey lead to cash to renewal.

Rose Penhasi
Exactly. And exactly, and we are doing it all, we are not stopping only in sales when the deal is closed one. So and of course, we’re starting even earlier, when the marketing before even the marketing brings the leads, were trying to figure out what works better. Exactly. So that’s also an integral part. And of course, there’s like several departments who are communicating on a daily basis with, with sells, so it’s not only marketing and, and customer success, it can be also pre sales, it can be SDR teams, it can be also finance team management. And for several departments,

Avner Baruch
I totally agree. Again, from process point of view, if a business sees that as one journey, you know that there is only one way and that’s that is you know, going up. Things can only improve from process point of view, sharing information, the old handoff between marketing as the sales, development, sales, and then pre sales, and of course, customer success, retention, etc. That’s from process point of view, if so, if you if you can sell that as one journey, everyone wins. But if you also implement processes that helps, you know, all those all those teams do cooperate, to share information. And to win if you’re on a meeting with a customer or a prospect, and then you live your, you know, you share your insights and data with other units that you know, come later, then, or the other way around, if you can leverage the information that you know, other units, other business units, other roles, were able to gain later, if you’re if you’re able to leverage that information. In in the process of communicating something with your prospect or customer. Again, everyone wins. So I see that no gaining popularity as well. Implementing processes that allow every team in the brain the journey know from leads to cash to renewal, I say that getting more and more popularity, improving handoffs, using feedback systems or processes in order to gain data from other units in order to you know, improve our process, current process, etc. So, from sales ops, what do you do? That’s extremely important, if you can implement that process and get you know, everyone to cooperate with that?

Rose Penhasi
Yeah, yeah, that’s correct. As you said, it’s a it’s the old buyer journey.

Avner Baruch
Yep. Exactly. By the way, that’s the reason why Gardner decided to dedicate a new category, buyer journey, buyer engagement category, and more and more, you know, marketing, software vendors realize that they need to improve their footprint and exposure. And they basically move into that category as well. So if that was, you know, that was like a niche category up to a few years ago. Thanks to kuwana and rice Okay, more and more software vendors basically blend into that category. And you know, it’s not just about marketing. It’s not just about the bar engagement space, it’s about being able to offer anyone who deals with customers and prospects, the ability to seamlessly move from one stage to the other, without any friction.

Rose Penhasi
With Exactly, yeah,

Avner Baruch
I think it’s all thanks to technology, which is evolving and improving as we speak, mainly machine learning and AI. So it’s not just about not like going back to goals, or Gong or any other similar tool that, you know, they started by transcripting goals. And today, they offer revenue intelligence, like another layer. And other two other tools. Other other software basically, provide even more enhanced capabilities in terms of providing the users enablement, sales ops, deal desk, even salespeople, they provide them the actionable insights they need without actually investing any effort. So when you share information with a prospect slash customer, then the system, you know, applies the AI or machine learning and danik provides you back the actionable insights. And then you can use that and apply that into whatever process you’re applying like sales ops, revenue ops.

Rose Penhasi
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we can, we can definitely see that the core software that companies are using our CRM, but it’s not just the CRM, there are several tools, which they’re using as well, for the inbound or outbound processes. Which makes, which makes it as which helps them sorry, which helps them with with the buyer journey, as well. And eventually, after they build all those processes, and I would like expand it like I would expand about it in a minute. After they build all those processes, it’s very important for them also to have some kind of a dashboard or a report, not just one usually, that they could analyze everything and eventually see what affects the revenues. What leads that the more qualified leads the revenues every step or every stage of the process. Yeah,

Avner Baruch
yep. And the more components and technologies you you’re introduced or implementing your cells tech stack, the higher the the reliance on that dashboard from tier one managers. So in other words, let me put aveeno in simple words, we all agree on the fact that our working environment is evolving and becoming more and more complicated from technology point of view, from from from reps point of view, they need to deal with that overhead of feeding information into multiple systems, etc. From day one manager point of view, it’s very hard, you know, to to enable train coach your reps, and, you know, drive them towards success and productivity and, you know, reaching their goal, but at the same time, doing a lot of housekeeping, using dashboards and different UI, different experience different look and feel because you’re using at least 567 16 different applications just to track the progress or the performance of your team members. So being able to implement those processes that you’re implementing in order to gain actionable insights with minimum friction and time. That’s extremely important.

Rose Penhasi
So yeah, I definitely agree. I just posted regarding dashboards and reports today, because we had some clients that, like were really dying to get amazing dashboards and reports, regarding everything performance pipeline, Arr, like you can imagine. And then we, for some several projects, we started to build that. And then we saw that we are ending up with like 30 different reports. And we wanted to focus more. So we build some kind of a guide that helps you to understand which kind of reports you would need, according to the department according to the team according to the roles. So that would help you to focus the certain or the specific reports or dashboards for the specific teams and their interest.

Avner Baruch
That’s amazing. Again, you touch a very important point or a very important beam, which is too much information to consume.

Rose Penhasi
Exactly. And actually, a few months ago, we started a new methodology, actually, it’s called the scale of hierarchy, which is more like it’s like the Maslow hierarchy. If you know it, and probably, you know, oh, so it’s basically starting from data, which is on the bottom of the pyramid, and then goes to processes and then eventually goes to dashboards and automation. So basically everyone, everyone wants to get into the dashboards, reports, automation, all the good stuff, right, but they cannot get to it. If they don’t have accurate data in the system, and they don’t have processes on top of it, and like salespeople trained on those processes.

Avner Baruch
Everyone wants to cut corners. Yep,

Rose Penhasi
exactly. So once we are starting a project with, with the company, we are making sure first, that we are covering the accurate data in the processes before we are going and build dashboards and automation parts. So this is also a very important part of what we do, because it’s very important to understand that we are making sure once we are stepping into a company, that everything is aligned, and they have the data and they have, and they have the processes and on top of it, we can add automation and reports. Sometimes the reason expectation to have the report on the first week, and this is most of the time, it’s not happening. Because when we are in a project with many companies, we’re seeing some of the mess and we need to first clean up the mess, figure out the right data, build the processes, and then get to the nice things.

Avner Baruch
I assume that’s the hardest job. That’s the hardest task when you start a project implementing I mean, going in and implementing the processes, whatever it takes in order to reach a successful implementation of the CRM and the process. Yeah, no, go ahead.

Rose Penhasi
Yes, it is, it is challenging, it’s, I think the first month is the most challenging part. In a project. Usually, we do like three to six months project sometimes like it’s a retainer based. So it’s like, like longer, but usually it’s between three months to six months. And the first man is the most intensive one, because we need to learn about the company, we need to understand their industry a little bit their process their product, everything, which is arounder marketing Celsius and then try to see which kind of beta or which kind of things are not working in the company. So this is the most and also like, I think that some of the the, the management or or some of the key roles in the companies are getting to understand what what is the importance of having all those things inside their company, although sales processes, eventually it helps their their sales people, and it grows their revenues. So So yeah,

Avner Baruch
let me challenge you here. Yeah, let’s, let’s assume let’s imagine that you’re in, you’re implementing whatever it takes, yeah, a few weeks, months later, okay. Job done. Congratulations. And, and then you realize that, you know, even though you implemented those processes in a very user friendly manner, and whatever you check on the on the customer, you want to say that, you know, they’re using your product, which is the processes and whatever you mean, the dashboards and reports, they’re using that, okay, they are engaging with your product successfully. And then you find out that reps or no sales, customer success, and other business units. They’re not actually using, that they’re not feeling the information they’re required to fit into whatever you implemented, doesn’t happen. And how do you deal with that?

Rose Penhasi
Yes, I think that’s the most challenging part of an implementation, usually a CRM implementation. Because the sales people sometimes are used to something they used to their Google Sheets, they’re used to their cell standalone. Yeah. And then they need to move to work with the system with a new system with new start with the new structure or process. So this makes like a change for them. And it’s sometimes very difficult to adapt to change. And we see that in companies. What we are trying to do is to follow up to have like weekly meetings, and to try to understand what bothers them, why doesn’t work, what can work better to try to understand their point of view, eventually, they would need to work with the system. Maybe we can make it easier for them by implementing a little different process or implementing any automation by the end of the project or like doing some thing a little bit differently. So we are, we are trying to be listeners, and try to understand what what can be done differently. And of course, I think that there is a very, there is a lot of value in training in on ongoing training.

Unknown Speaker
Exactly.

Rose Penhasi
Once you’re investing in training of salespeople, it really helps them eventually to understand and learn faster and better. So I would really recommend every company to invest in training in general in training salespeople, both in content and processes. And I bet it would like lead to amazing results.

Avner Baruch
Again, I agree on this, on this topic on this matter, because I see that quite often, it’s probably one of the most challenging, you know, areas of my work enablement and sales ops, they invest tons of hours, you know, could be some piece of information, collateral document presentation, coaching session or processes, from your point of view, then the engagement is a bit boring, not satisfying. And it just takes, you know, the wind out of your sails. And it’s kind of hard to, you know, to put things together again, and to, to, to move forward. When engagement, you know, is not, you know, is not very high. And from a business point of view, it slows the business down. So, going back to what you said, I think that yes, training is important, I would even go one step back and say that culture is extremely important. I think that we need to establish culture first meaning, you know, what’s the point of the manager in this in this in this in this challenge, okay, how can they contribute to the successful engagement? What is the role in terms of either you know, escalation, training, the reps or coaching or, you know, helping everyone to be more engaging in more productive, instead of wasting time on escalations And guys, let’s just, you know, post stuff, whatever you’re doing, and just, you know, do do your housekeeping properly, before you move on to the next goal, whatever it is. So I think culture is extremely important. And when you build a sales team from scratch, I would start with culture, cultural feedback, culture of housekeeping culture of ongoing training enablement, culture of working properly, with serves up, under, you know, feeding back what works, what doesn’t work in order to help both sides. And if needed change, free text and mandatory tags, if needed, implement technologies that, you know, automate the process, without, you know, too much close to whatever it is. So I think culture and training and ongoing enablement can definitely help here.

Rose Penhasi
Definitely, I agree. And, actually, we, we met one of our clients who, who wasn’t paying the commission unless the CRM is updated. So this was this was their, like, their method to have all sales team aligned and like, transparent and having like everything in the CRM. So this was also Yeah.

Avner Baruch
This is one technique. Another technique is if someone listens now, and they are, you know, they’re trying to find out what is what is the secret sauce, what are the ingredients of successful implementation whatsoever. So there are so many parameters, and so many ideas, how to drive everyone towards a successful engagement whatsoever. But what I can recommend for those that listen to this session today is to think about new hires that are going to join us or join our team. Okay, they start from scratch. And, you know, we all started from something. And when you start, you know, from, from scratch from the ground up, you’re trying to first understand the market you’re selling to and then the product and then you know, what does it take in order to sell successfully to move, you know, effectively close the sale second. So there’s a lot of things we need to learn and very, very fast, we’re in a hyper growth business, we can’t afford two years of a sales cycle, we need to move very, very fast and very, very effective, effectively. So if there is something like a process, automation, technology, information we can find in the CRM, whatever it is, if there is something that can help others, okay, so we better do that. We better invest the time to help others. And by the way, if others invest time filling in the information, like you know, that pitch really worked for me, that objection handling really worked for me that, you know, one liner really helped me to kill that, you know, that competitor, if I if I feed that information back into the CRM, Then others can actually benefit from that and vice versa. So it’s a process that helps everyone, not just, you know, sales ops or enablement. Everyone benefits from, you know, becoming data driven.

Rose Penhasi
Yeah, exactly. And sharing knowledge between the salespeople is, is also very valuable.

Avner Baruch
sharing knowledge sharing success,

Rose Penhasi
actually sharing. Yeah, exactly. And also sharing everything that didn’t work. And then yeah, I

Avner Baruch
was, this has been a very enjoying conversation so far. And I’m so happy to have you here today. But before we actually conclude our session today, I’m sure there is a lot of things that you know, we haven’t been able to talk to you yet. Is there anything you want to add? I know, words of wisdom tips for the audience, anyone who is about to embark on a new journey of implementing a CRM and the feel a bit puzzled? Anything you want to share with us?

Rose Penhasi
Yes, so I think there’s still a little of not a little though, there’s still a lack of knowledge of what is a sales operations or revenue operations and what they do. So it’s basically I would separate cells into two parts. That content that pitch, the good storytelling of the sales people, they’re amazing presentation. And the second one is the are the processes. So sales operations are doing everything which is related to the processes. So I think that there is still a lack of knowledge of what they do and what they can bring. And there are companies who takes it still as a, let’s say, a secretary or something like someone who does some kind of technical job,

Avner Baruch
admin stuff,

Rose Penhasi
admin staff, back office s, or the sales people Secretary as well. I think there is much more to learn about this role and revenue operations, if you take it, it can be a really strategic role inside companies

Avner Baruch
couldn’t agree more.

Rose Penhasi
Yeah, and of course, in startups, I think that they, they should hire sales operations in an early stage of early stage in the company. So some of the companies are hiring that in later stages, but between the seed stage and the round a stage is when they’re starting to build their sales funnel, I would recommend to have someone on board to help you with the processes, because eventually, you will benefit from it, and you will be able to grow your revenues.

Avner Baruch
I couldn’t agree more. And I was very fortunate to work in, in some some of the leading companies in the market today, where sales ops or biz Ops, it’s different names of the same function functionality. The CEO wouldn’t make a move without consulting with sales ops or business, not a move, every move the CEO, you know, the leadership would take, they would consult first with sales ops in biz Ops, where are we? Where do we stand? What’s the, you know, data hygiene, sales up hygiene, the, you know, what’s the pipeline situation? And what keeps everyone behind? guada? Sometimes data, I mean, reports are not enough, you have to compliment the reports with something else. Either, you know, could be behavioral patterns, or could be like, you know, digging in and trying to understand whatever goes on in those gaps. And having the right sales operations or business operations, can either you know, help you to drive the business or weigh you down or slow you down. So, I couldn’t agree more. sales ops is one of the most strategic, you know, key factors in the journey to success and by the way, from a personal point of view, I think that you know, let’s talk about enablement, sales enablement or revenue enablement for a minute. I think that you know, sales ops and biz ops are the best partners of sales enablement. And they need to work hand in hand and to you know, to join efforts and to to complement each other from data point of view from processes point of view. They can help identify gaps that others can see, because they not only see the data, but also you know, they work with it. People, so they know exactly what is going on between one stage and another. So when someone complains about not moving fast enough, or you know, barking too much, you know, bending closed one, okay? The only person who can actually understand why is sales ops and perhaps sales enablement, if they work closely together, and you’re laughing because I guess you are agreeing here.

Rose Penhasi
enablement brings the content that they operations brings to the process. They’re both completely Yeah, complement each other. Yeah, exactly. Thank you so much.

Avner Baruch
Well, the pleasure was all mine and I really enjoyed meeting with you again. And, again, I want to recommend to anyone who listens to this session, if you’re, you know, taking part in sales enablement, revenue intelligence or sales ops, I think that, you know, implementing the the go to market playbooks properly and correctly can can help everyone to move more effectively across the sales cycle. So I hope everyone enjoyed this session as much as I did. And I’m looking forward to seeing you again, Rosie.

Rose Penhasi
Me too. Thank you so much.