Tim Ohai is the Global Director of Sales Enablement at Workday.  In this conversation with The Collaborator, Tim shared his insights on providing sales management enablement, from the front line to the executive suite.

Some key lessons to pay attention to include:

1️⃣Focus on laying down the framework, the basics, before trying to go deeper.

2️⃣Part of the basics is to ensure you have the cooperation, collaboration, and communication solid.  Teams that partner will overcome limitations in processes and frameworks but great processes and frameworks will fail if people are not working together.

3️⃣”The best enablement you can provide a seller is a great manager”.  Why and how to focus on manager enablement.

4️⃣“Never give an expectation that you’re not empowering” <- Always important!

Great conversation and tons of wonderful advice.  Give a listen and remain curious.

Audio Transcript

Tim Ohai
Yeah, yeah, if you if you want to, you want to do this whole thing in PGM bar, we can go there. But

Unknown Speaker
you know, let’s

Tim Ohai
just keep it with proper English.

Unknown Speaker
I love it. I love it.

The Collaborator
Tell us about you know, a lot of people are aware of who you are if you’ve been around this sex for a while, and many people aren’t. So tell us a little bit about yourself, Tim. Oh, man.

Tim Ohai
Okay, so well, so I started I’m originally from Hawaii. And if you were to ask me if I was going to grow up and go be doing this stuff, no way.

Unknown Speaker
I was even doing feature.

Tim Ohai
I was a schoolteacher, I was a fifth grade school teacher back in Hawaii, and a high school soccer coach. And that was kind of, you know, my thing and then met my wife. We had our son and went from, you know, family, one to a family of three on a teacher’s salary. It was like, that wasn’t gonna work. So we wound up moving to the mainland, and I landed in b2b sales, and then took my educational background and really a drive and landed and it wasn’t even called enablement. Back then it was something else it was more than just training. I mean, training was probably my entry into it, but it was, it was always something more. And that’s how I’ve landed in enablement. So I’ve been doing it for Well, there’s a reason why my beard is white now. So

The Collaborator
yeah, I kind of with you on that. People, though, I don’t remember if it was you and I talking about it when we chatted before, or somebody else but you know, very few of us start off our lives thinking we’re going to be an enablement. So

Tim Ohai
I remember stuff years ago from the university sales Education Foundation, saying, you know, most people in sales didn’t plan on being in sales. So it’s just Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The Collaborator
It’s one of those places.

Tim Ohai
You started out in tech. Right. You were where you program I

The Collaborator
graduated, I originally went to school as for electrical engineering, went to Boston University many, many centuries ago. It

Tim Ohai
still was a century powder, all the other stuff. Yeah, and

The Collaborator
powder, wigs, all that. And I, you know, I went up to the technical ranks and switched over to the business side. And I’ve done a lot of different things. But I think all of us bring such unique perspectives because of those differences. Yeah, that it just enriches the space. And I love that. Now, what, what you work at? workday, right?

Tim Ohai
workday. So yeah, I was running my own consulting for almost 12 years and then got recruited during work day, a year and a half ago, a little over a year and a half ago. And just john Dugan, if anybody knows john degan, the chief rockin tour, john john and I wound up connecting over lunch and fast forward to where we are now. And if there’s john, there’s me. There’s Christine Castleford, Reno’s Christine castle. And then we just added Rene grool, over from SAP just joined us to help us with our customer base. And we, the four of us worked directly for Pat Tupper, who’s our VP. And we kind of tackle this thing, we’re calling sales enablement, but it’s it’s a lot bigger than what probably most people are used to.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah,

Tim Ohai
let me just back up. So one of the things we did right when I came in was we redid our charter. And we made it very intentional that we were going to be about the integration of content, tools and behaviors and not just training I, I still to this day, people say we need enablement and they really need training, I will then just say training because enablement so much more. But my team in particular, we do, we’re solution consultants, we’re like the in house consultants on the team, as we work through these enablement solutions as trying to drive our go to market strategy. Easier said as everything looks great on paper until people get involved, then that’s where we come in

The Collaborator
the old mike tyson line. I hate to refer to Mike Tyson. What Yeah, planet planet he get hit in the mouth or something.

Unknown Speaker
He’s got a strategy to get in the face. Something like that. Right? Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Unknown Speaker
And it’s true of the National Map.

Unknown Speaker
Oh, yeah.

The Collaborator
And all sudden, you’re in the middle of customers last and you’re like crap, how do we how do we get out of it? Exactly. Exactly. Or, or you get the whole classic, you know, everybody designed it. And they said, okay, enable it, you can now join the conversation. Like,

Unknown Speaker
wait a minute, did you even think about how this was gonna, you know, go past lunch?

The Collaborator
But yeah. And it’s funny, and I and I see that in my own my own life, Tim, I mean, it’s certainly not unique to your situation, or anybody else who’s listening. You know, we we have grown both to you know, new customers, but also by acquiring businesses. Yeah, yeah. constantly bringing in new businesses. And then you’re like, Okay, we do it this way. You do it this way. And then you have to start merging it all together. So it’s a constant. You get sort of some ideal state or closer to ideal and then you get some that’s just far off and, and it’s always a journey, no matter what you’re doing. Well, so

Tim Ohai
I was just talking with somebody A little bit earlier today on this, and we were talking about how enablement now has reached a point where senior sales leaders are going, I need enablement, because if I don’t have it, I can’t scale my growth. And I’d actually say enablement very much as if you’re trying to tackle scalability. That’s your anchor point.

The Collaborator
I think I think you are. Yeah, I agree with you, Tim. I mean, I think, you know, part of what I know, we’ll talk about here before we’re done is is manager enablement, I think, you know, you need to scale your enablement by going to the managers and out. But I also one of the things I constantly preach, and we are not perfect at it. any stretch of the imagination, anybody that says there is, since they are is full of shit, let’s be honest, let’s call it is. It’s a work in progress that’d be placed. But for me, I’m always about. I’m a big New England Patriots fan. Oh, I’m

Unknown Speaker
sorry.

The Collaborator
Yeah, I know. I know. But I went through Steve Grogan in the 70s Oh, yeah, I earned my stripes. Um, but for me, it’s always about let’s get back to basics fundamentals and build frameworks. So we can scale this puppy. We don’t have to be perfect. We don’t have to cover everything as well as we want to. But we need to be constantly heading towards that Promised Land. Yeah. And that’s part of it, too. I don’t know. How do you I mean, do you approach it? Similarly? Tim, it seems like you’re, you have a similar

Tim Ohai
definitely think in terms of maturity level. So there’s, there’s a fundamental layer that you have to get right. And, and, and being able to have your onboarding in place. But But how many roles are you trying to hook together, a lot of times people over rotate to what sellers need. And then their managers get what’s leftover, or they get the same thing. And they’re just told to, here’s your phone, here’s your laptop, go sell. And it’s like, wait a minute, that’s not really what

Unknown Speaker
they need, right?

Tim Ohai
So you’ve got that whole layer. And then people try to build on top of them do these great, you know, process reengineering, and everything else, and launch tech and CRM tech stack all that. But they never got that first layer, right? So what happens I find is that if you don’t do the bottom layer, and you already work on the second layer, and you’re working on the third, and you only got maybe 40% of that bottom layer in place, and implemented and actually cemented, your building is going to collapse. And I think a lot of folks in enablement have to redo and redo and undo and redo over time, because they didn’t get the right foundation left layered. And so that’s, that’s a big part of it.

The Collaborator
So so important, you know, I I’m responsible for solution marketing and cut and the content creation services team, among other things here, where I work beyond just enablement. And I always said the same thing. You know, I told one of our new solution marketers last night, I said to her, I said, Look, we can do this right, or we can do it fast. I would rather you do it right than fast.

Tim Ohai
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So let me ask you, you had to fight for, and I mean, fight for like, you were gonna stick your neck out and say, Look, I have to have X. How would you What would you put in as x to make make your efforts, the foundation for them work

The Collaborator
in terms of enablement itself? Or do you mean is it in general, in general, but

Tim Ohai
let’s say you’re working on you’re going to, you’re being tasked to launch a new strategic initiative. It’s a it’s tied to a very important solution that you’re wanting to bring to market whatever. What is your x factor?

The Collaborator
You know, for me, it’s, it’s going to sound corny, but for me, it’s always about setting up the collaboration models. I’m at the center of it all, there’s a lot of details around understanding KPIs and metrics, there’s a lot of you know, setting up the frameworks and all of these other kinds of things you need. But if you don’t have a team that can cooperate and collaborate and communicate, and I know that sounds corny, marketing ease, but for me, that’s the fundamental people will overcome the limitations in the process and all the other stuff, if they if they view it as a partnership, and they’re working together. But if you have a great process and framework and all that, and nobody’s talking, me, it doesn’t matter. So to me, it’s about the people, the then those threads of communication and collaboration, because they’ll overcome all the shortcomings and all the other stuff.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, that’s true. That’s true.

The Collaborator
What about you, Jim?

Tim Ohai
Well, so I fully agree with that. And I don’t know if how I can replace it. But what first came to my mind is, you know how you’re going to drive the reinforcement of it. So in that reinforcement is it’s going to be absolutely hooked into the collaboration talking about, but my angle is also how do we really drive that empowerment of the manager because my fundamental belief is the best enablement, you can give a seller as a great manager.

The Collaborator
So I agree. So how are you approaching that? Because I got excited about you because you weren’t just talking about frontline managers, Tim? Yeah, cheese. I’m approaching it from frontline all the way up. Yeah. Yeah. You know, first off, how did you convince people that that was the right thing? Because I’ve never met an executive I technically have a VP title. Who cares? But I’ve never met, I’ve met very few VPS that truly recognize that they can improve?

Tim Ohai
Yeah, it’s actually well, so let’s just, this is one of the things that drew me to workday, the culture really is amazing. I don’t want to turn this into some big, you know, rah rah about workday, but it’s a great place to work. It really is. And, and it’s refreshing to have leaders who are open to suggestion, we all have different opinions. But, but we can talk about it, we can wrestle it through, we can figure it out. And at the end of the day, our sales leaders are huge amounts of empathy for what the effort and the work and the discipline that their team needs. So they’re, they’re passionate about not only making sure their people are the best their passion about being the best leader, they can be on behalf of their teams. So So with that said, You know, I, I will come in first and foremost, you gotta get the right mindset for this. Yeah. And and so when I talk to leaders, you know, when I talk to frontline managers, for example, and frontline manager, I think the goal there is you’ve got to be a great coach, you cannot be a deal hero, you’ve got to step out of being a deal here, or get off to get off the playing field, stand on the sideline, and bring the best out of your team. So I asked him, you know, what’s, what’s your number one goal, and I picked this up from Dave Brock, who is a good buddy, but I just love the way he thinks. Yeah, so Dave, if you if you’re listening, I’m, I’ll take everything back later, but I’m gonna say nicely. So so I have people write down what your number one goal as as a sales leader, and I let people write it down and give them enough time, then I go, Okay, so now, don’t say anything. If you wrote down to hit your number, or some version of that your answers wrong. And it’s amazing.

The Collaborator
Because I picked him 80% saying that,

Tim Ohai
yeah, the room, there’s a few folks are like, yep, I have a different answer. But there’s a majority is like, what? I go, No, that’s your people. Number one responsibility, that’s not your responsibility, they have to get their number, your job is to make sure you have a team of people who are hitting their number. And so that’s a different role. And so that’s a hard mindset shift. But then when you go into sales executives, they now have to get past being the head coach, and they now have to move into that, that true that back office, you know, building, truly, and building a system, a system where coaching is happening, but also operations are happening and also continuous improvement and HR systems and all that stuff is interconnected. And most sales executives are not systems thinkers, or they weren’t trained to be they just learned it on the job.

The Collaborator
That way. Yeah, that’s if

Tim Ohai
they’re taught that or they realize that because there’s still a fair number of VPS out there, who are still deal heroes, so you have to go tackle that. And then you have to think through. Okay, so if, if you’re going to be a systems leader, what’s the first question you’re asked? And when you’re let’s say, for example, you’re going to go on a joint sales call. And it happens all the time, we bring in our, you know, our senior sales title to go talk to their senior customer title.

Unknown Speaker
Yeah, exactly.

Tim Ohai
And I challenge our leaders to go, what’s the first question, you’re going to ask the team? Are you gonna ask them about the customer? And I asked him about us, like, Well, what do you mean, I go, my recommendation to you is, when you show up, ask your sales leader, who from your team is involved in this deal? And what’s your goal for their development. Because you’re showing up out there, number one, to have the best damn sales team in the world. You’re not showing up about out there, number one, to go land the deal. Because if that’s your number one goal, guess what? You’ll be doing emails at 11 o’clock at night, just like the rest of your team. Because everybody’s you didn’t build that capability to go across the whole organization. And then if you’re really open the eyes, and you can say, Oh, so let’s talk about how you leverage your your ops support. How do you leverage your finance support? How do you leverage your marketing support and build a system so that you can technically turn your back and go fine tune things? As you know, the system is working on its own, but that’s not a skill set that a lot of executives are taught.

The Collaborator
So how do you? How do you go about teaching them? Or what role in the education and support of that level do you put in? Well, so first, first, we

Tim Ohai
had to go tackle what good looks like, right? So we started with, and I’m going to go old school, I’m going to use competency, even though you know, now it’s capability frameworks. But you know, I’m an old competency want. But we built we built a capability framework for our sales leaders at workday that take you from brand new new hire newly promoted to be a sales manager, maybe never done it before, through two, and it goes up to varying degrees up to what’s required to be a vice president of sales. And so now, we have a definition so that I can say, look, hey, you’re brand new to job, here’s where you’re starting. Let’s make sure we we give you the training you need to get there. So you can be proficient as a sales manager. But then now we have those conversations with folks, hey, I want to go to the next level. Well, here’s what the next step would look like. And here’s what’s expected to be a VP. So let’s talk about what Cause you know how to be a candidate for that. And then if you’re doing and then you go back into the other side of this is self reflect, are you where you should be? And where do you have gaps? Can you have folks out there who may have been a sales manager for years, but they’re still operating as if they’re a new hire in certain areas. And until you can have a standard definition, they’re not going to see it that way. Because I hit my number every year. Yeah. But if you want to go to the next level, here’s where you’re at. And here’s where you need to go. So that first and foremost is level setting that expectation of what good like good looks like and it has to be embraced not only by, you know, the individual, but by the leaders, because now they have to own it and make that part of their dialogue. If I’m a VP talking to my managers in an off site, I need to be apples to apples with everybody. And I need to say, yeah, you know, Maria, you had great numbers this year, and Joe, you didn’t. But when it comes to your capabilities, you’re on the same playing field. And Maria, if you had Joe’s region, you would have the same numbers.

The Collaborator
So I like that view. Now, let me ask you this, Tim, because I know it’s not just training and defining P and training people to these competencies that we’re talking about here. That’s right. A whole lot more. What What does that whole lot more look like?

Tim Ohai
Yeah, so now you now get into so there’s, there’s the program side of this, and then the stuff that I just called organic. So and this is where I really appreciate having john Dugan as a partner, because he’s really gone after mindset coaching for our VPS. He’s got a level up program that he’s done. And we’ve, we’ve worked together on it, but he’s just he and his team, just it’s really cool to be able to have somebody will say, you know, I grew up in Hawaii paddling in outrigger canoes, and it’s nice to know that you’ve that you can paddle as hard as you want. There’s still somebody in the back staring you in the right direction. So you’re, you know, not making it harder than it needs to be. But but like we we have formal programs that deal with mindset, not skill set. So the mindset game is huge. Do you have the right mindset to embrace, you’re running a system, you’re a general manager, you’re you’re not just in the weeds as a deal here on every single sales tactic. But then you have to have there has to be level setting around what the skill sets are. And so we bring in guest speakers and we also do a lot of peer coaching, we’ll set people up mentoring hasaan So is it really recruiting other VP, other VP, etc. and VP, the up and coming sales managers, hey, look, I’m gonna so you have that, that organic peer teaching and hump and then and then we’re we’re moving and COVID threw us off. But where we’re going is having capstone projects, where we’re going to give you a project to go make the the overall system better. And you figure out, here’s a list of, of initiatives you could pick from, we’ll have, you know, executive sponsorship for each of those. But you figure out what needs to be done and you go work with Ops, you go work with HR, you go work with whoever based on the problem you’re trying to tackle. I love that man. Because the whole organization benefit. And then you learn from that experience, how to be a systems thinker, how to be a systems leader, and how to bring other people along on that journey.

The Collaborator
Now you and I didn’t talk about this ahead of time. So please feel free to say john Skipper. I’m curious, though, if you have thoughts on does this support succession planning? And if there’s any efforts, or what the efforts and thoughtfulness around inclusion that have gone into building this too, because those are such important topics that I failed to even think about them book as I wrote the question, so shame on me. Well, you guys doing there.

Tim Ohai
So that that’s really important. So let’s let’s slow slows down a little bit. So yeah, so there’s still program stuff like we overhauled how we onboard and everything else, of course, but but let’s talk about succession planning first. So the idea here, is once you have the same definition of what good looks like, and now you’re starting to get to activate, how can I achieve that? Now you’re into this really important, really essential idea that you can never give an expectation that you’re not empowering?

The Collaborator
Which I love that statement?

Tim Ohai
Yeah. So if we’re going to give you an expectation that you’re going to be a GM, we have to empower that. So believe it or not, a lot of what we do is, is how do we create an environment, a context where leaders can thrive? So do they have a great tech stack? Right? Yeah, I mean, I can’t remember his name right now and I can picture his face, Russ, a cough, you know, there’s an old video of him, you know, talking about systems thinking and he says, you know, if I, if I wanted to build a great car, and I took you know, the engine from a Ford the carburetor from a Honda and the exhaust system from a BMW, and I slapped it together, and I said, Here’s your car, it would be a horrible car. And and to kick it one step further, you know, in sales. What we do is we give people these cars technologically, and then we go tell our sales leaders go dry faster, you need to win the race.

The Collaborator
So I laughing through

Tim Ohai
it, yes, we spent a lot of time thinking about how do we create an environment where success can happen. And now, we also bring in our assessment process. And we have that calibration around these capabilities and the definition of what good looks like. And of course, you want to consider the results you’re getting, it’s both. And we even bring in you know, we have a, we’re really big on the best workplace survey, we’re constantly as leaders held accountable for the culture we’re creating, that’s an actual factor that drives your promote ability and your success as a leader. And then you know, that, who’s really ready, and we designed our capability framework to say, look, this is what a proficient manager looks like. And this is what a manager who’s a candidate for VP looks like. And we created that differentiation, so we can have that dialogue. And then and then you get into that, let’s go back into the diversity and, and I want to go and inclusion. Right? So that’s your other piece of that. Because we can say we’re diverse. Oh, yeah, look at these people, they’re different, they look different, they sound different, whatever. But we have to include, and this is really fascinating for me, coming from Hawaii, where, you know, we were, it was it was I’ll put it to you this way, it was wild for me to go from Hawaii, where, you know, I grew up with, you know, Japanese bond festivals, and, you know, Filipino festivals and Chinese New Year and, you know, Irish funerals and whatever, California and I, everybody’s diverse, but I don’t see everybody as blended. And, and so inclusiveness for me is is like, hey, how do we embrace that and include it in a way that it all works together. And we have a lot of work to do in corporate, we we have a very strong diversity game, but we still have a long way to go. And it’s just in general, when it comes to inclusiveness. So you know, I it’s funny, I’ve got a good relationship with with our HR director, we have a lot of one to one conversation about this, I go, dude, we have to like, we have to change the game so that it’s not about, you know, how can we bring in minorities? Or how can we elevate women? Or how can we, you know, pick a group that’s currently, I’ll just use the phrase we use in South Africa disadvantaged? And okay, how do we take a group that’s been disadvantaged historically? And not just say, Hey, we have this slot? can you fit it? And we’ll just pick this advantage? You know, representative, as like, no, if you really want to do this, right? Say, Hey, join our company, we’ll give you a variety of opportunities where you can flourish and see which one will you work best. And then we’ll let you have that slot. Because now we’re really trying to create a success environment where you can thrive and be who you are, based on the strengths you bring to the business.

The Collaborator
Did you go to STS, a sales enablement society a couple of years ago, in Austin, I

Unknown Speaker
think it was, No, I did not

The Collaborator
bad. There was a great speaker, this guy that runs HR at Target, I think it was, but he went, he went so far as to actually going back into the local educational system, and helping educate all of all kinds, all of us the same opportunities and skills right from the beginning. And I loved that too.

Tim Ohai
Yeah. Well, I mean, like, you know, I’ll talk about and then we’ve challenged, I’ve personally challenged our HR, you know, what’s our relationship and our strategy for historically black universities and colleges, which are, you know, how are we mentoring, with other clubs, even in high school to create space and desire that, you know, you have a career that you may not think you could ever do? Because like the rest of us, none of us thought we were going to be in tech sales, or it takes relationship. But what that said, it’s very much around getting away from this idea of like, okay, we’re in sales, and we have a target for x diverse city hires. And we’re just going to go grab people and see if they fit. It’s like, let’s, let’s just bring diversity into the business, and let let people demonstrate where they fit best. And say, that’s how you drive inclusiveness.

The Collaborator
I love that. I love that. Yeah, no, that that’s beautiful, man. I’m sensitive to the time. So let me ask you this. What kind of results have you seen? I love the fact that you’re focused on the culture. Those are, those are things you measure from from a number of ways. But how do you what have you seen for success? And what does that even mean for this program?

Tim Ohai
Yeah, so So first, we just had a lot of that because we had nothing, right? We started with zero real metrics. That’s when you have to start from nothing. And you’re trying to say I want to drive manager enablement. The first thing we did was we just went after proficiency scores against these capabilities, where are people at? And then we also had employee survey results, and we could start looking at people who have this level of proficiency had this had a more engaged workforce and look like wow. And then we started leveraging to analyze correlations between manager proficiency and individual team proficiency. And their performance. And we found some fascinating things like, for example, when we have a manager who’s below proficient, they’re anywhere from two to three times more likely to have a team that’s below proficient. So you think about that as

The Collaborator
research and data that backs that up to,

Tim Ohai
and that was our own internal data, we had people who are who are have been brought on as managers. And because we’ve done nothing to help them, that’s part of the that’s part of it, we got to own that, you know, we draw them into a role. And then we didn’t empower them to be successful. That’s, that’s fair. But we have folks who have been in a role, and their team is just languishing behind learning curve as a result. And so now all of their sales performance is different as well. But now we’re working to be able to measure targeted sales results. So looking at our volume and our velocity metrics, and then bringing our talent management targets. So looking at at our speed of proficiency, how long does it take for somebody to onboard and get up to where they need to be looking at our pen strength for promotions. And then eventually, we want to be able to take that and expand that into a bigger, more I’ll call organizational targets, like, like, where are we at? When it comes to diversity? You know, do we see a leveling out of people’s ability to be able to be successful in our organization, because we’ve created a an environment where you can be successful.

The Collaborator
Man, Tim, there was so much good stuff in there, seriously. And I could continue to talk to me for the next three hours about this. But time is essentially up. So let me ask you this. What didn’t we hit upon that that you want to make sure you get across in the final minute or two that we have together?

Unknown Speaker
shucks,

Tim Ohai
I don’t, I’ll say

Tim Ohai
there’s one thing I’ll say, and maybe we can do a whole nother conversation on this. But when we teach, kind of like our model to our leaders about how to think we go, it’s a moment say people pipe priorities in that order. Love it, right. So a lot of emphasis is spent on look at your metrics, look at your dashboard, look at your pipeline and go fix it. We’re like, my experience has been, and it continues to be whenever the pipeline looks bad. 80% of that is driven by people problems. And we don’t spend enough time driving the people side of this first, does your team have the mindset and the skill set in order to do the activities that you’re expecting them to do? And then on the backside of it, have we really stopped long enough to make clear priorities, and then reinforce those priorities over and over again, so that I don’t go from month to month to month with my boss giving me new priorities every month, every quarter, because that’s the flavor of the month, so that people are at ease, we could we could go deep on that. But that’s that’s probably the one thing I’d leave people with.

The Collaborator
Well, let’s do this. Let’s do this. Tim, if you’ll give me the pleasure, I’d love to have you back at some point to talk about that. I’d love to if you want to make the connection or bring them on board. I’d love to talk about the mindset coaching program too, because I think that’s an area that don’t invest enough time in across the board is into people mindset. So let’s let’s talk about that.

Tim Ohai
Absolutely. And we have to have diggin on that one. Of course, then I’m gonna tell you right now, be careful because the two of us together if one of us at a time, it’s pretty straightforward, but when you bring it together, it just turns into chaos in the most entertaining way.

The Collaborator
I’ll have a martini available for

Tim Ohai
the day later in the day for sure.

The Collaborator
Hey, Tim, thank you so much, my friend. I appreciate your generosity and sharing. I will reach right back out to you. And I’ll say this, everybody’s like great stuff, Jim. Love the pipe people pipe priorities, people that resonates with people. I know. We don’t all invest in it in the right order. But I think we all intuitively understand it. Cool. You take care of him. Thank you everybody for listening and we’ll be in touch soon. Aloha again. Take care