Phil Chew was formerly the Sales Skills Learning Directory at Refinitiv and Thomson Reuters and is now taking on the world working as a consultant at BPM Works and delivering training with Global Performance Group.

In this conversation with The Collaborator, Phil focused on retention strategies and tactics any business should consider using.  Amongst the topics covered include:

1️⃣ When does the retention strategy/process begin?

2️⃣ How the retention process works with account planning.

3️⃣The role of retention playbooks.

Give a listen.

Transcript

0:00:00.160,0:00:03.520 the collaborator here with phil chu phil 0:00:03.199,0:00:06.240 how 0:00:03.520,0:00:07.520 are you today ah good thanks yeah 0:00:06.240,0:00:09.599 despite the weather 0:00:07.520,0:00:11.840 very great in london because you’re 0:00:09.599,0:00:14.240 you’re just southeast of london right 0:00:11.840,0:00:16.160 that’s right place called seven oaks uh 0:00:14.240,0:00:18.000 in kent’s the garden of england 0:00:16.160,0:00:19.520 it’s probably the sunniest place under 0:00:18.000,0:00:22.240 the sun right i mean 0:00:19.520,0:00:23.840 england is known for its great sunny 0:00:22.240,0:00:27.279 beach weather 0:00:23.840,0:00:30.880 of course i wish i wish it was just a 0:00:27.279,0:00:32.320 little bit warmer hey do us a favor 0:00:30.880,0:00:35.600 though before we get started tell us a 0:00:32.320,0:00:35.600 little bit about yourself please 0:00:35.760,0:00:39.760 well i i i don’t want to bore you 0:00:37.440,0:00:41.600 because my my with my age i’ve obviously 0:00:39.760,0:00:43.680 been through a number of transitions but 0:00:41.600,0:00:45.760 there’s basically two buckets where i’ve 0:00:43.680,0:00:47.440 been before and the first one is 0:00:45.760,0:00:49.200 sales sales management for about 20 0:00:47.440,0:00:51.120 years and that was mostly with 0:00:49.200,0:00:54.160 information businesses 0:00:51.120,0:00:57.360 um and a couple of startups that that 0:00:54.160,0:00:59.520 i was involved in and then the second 0:00:57.360,0:01:02.559 phase really around learning development 0:00:59.520,0:01:04.080 um a lot of sales skills training 0:01:02.559,0:01:06.000 throughout out there in the in the 0:01:04.080,0:01:07.680 classroom but also 0:01:06.000,0:01:09.119 we always got dragged into a lot of 0:01:07.680,0:01:12.000 really interesting stuff like 0:01:09.119,0:01:12.960 competency assessments uh messaging 0:01:12.000,0:01:14.960 insight creation 0:01:12.960,0:01:16.560 sales playbooks you know stuff like that 0:01:14.960,0:01:16.960 and stuff one of the time i spent with 0:01:16.560,0:01:20.240 uh 0:01:16.960,0:01:22.240 reuters the news agency or financial 0:01:20.240,0:01:23.119 information business uh which became 0:01:22.240,0:01:26.400 thompson reuters 0:01:23.119,0:01:27.759 and is now definitive but uh currently 0:01:26.400,0:01:30.079 i’m freelance but 0:01:27.759,0:01:31.840 um working with a couple of great 0:01:30.079,0:01:34.799 companies bpm works who 0:01:31.840,0:01:36.720 who you know uh who create uh work on 0:01:34.799,0:01:38.240 like the big team cam platform and 0:01:36.720,0:01:39.840 create sales playbooks and selling 0:01:38.240,0:01:41.280 knowledge and then a training company 0:01:39.840,0:01:44.079 called global performance group 0:01:41.280,0:01:44.720 gpg which is some really good content 0:01:44.079,0:01:47.840 and 0:01:44.720,0:01:50.000 facilitation around around real deals 0:01:47.840,0:01:52.880 and making the best out of them 0:01:50.000,0:01:54.399 how interesting how interesting you know 0:01:52.880,0:01:55.920 let me dive into it though so 0:01:54.399,0:01:57.439 i know we want to talk about retention 0:01:55.920,0:02:00.640 today yeah and 0:01:57.439,0:02:02.560 and you know i read somewhere um that 0:02:00.640,0:02:05.119 you really think that businesses need a 0:02:02.560,0:02:07.040 retention process 0:02:05.119,0:02:09.119 uh and i don’t disagree with that but 0:02:07.040,0:02:11.440 i’m curious on your thoughts about 0:02:09.119,0:02:12.720 you know how do you sell this and why do 0:02:11.440,0:02:15.360 you believe 0:02:12.720,0:02:18.160 organizations need yet another process 0:02:15.360,0:02:19.760 why is this so important 0:02:18.160,0:02:21.280 i i think i think it’s important because 0:02:19.760,0:02:24.319 it matters massively 0:02:21.280,0:02:26.879 to revenue um not really 0:02:24.319,0:02:28.800 new revenue but although that is a great 0:02:26.879,0:02:30.080 source of new revenue is your existing 0:02:28.800,0:02:32.080 customers probably 0:02:30.080,0:02:33.200 80 of your revenue for an existing 0:02:32.080,0:02:35.920 business 0:02:33.200,0:02:37.760 mature business they’ll get 80 of their 0:02:35.920,0:02:39.280 their new revenue from about 25 their 0:02:37.760,0:02:41.120 existing ones you’ve really got to work 0:02:39.280,0:02:45.200 those existing customers 0:02:41.120,0:02:47.200 but why a process so um 0:02:45.200,0:02:49.120 because i think i think there’s a lack 0:02:47.200,0:02:51.519 of clarity about what 0:02:49.120,0:02:53.360 each person should be doing in in 0:02:51.519,0:02:53.920 account teams or customer success 0:02:53.360,0:02:57.040 management 0:02:53.920,0:02:58.159 groups in order to actually manage the 0:02:57.040,0:03:00.480 customer 0:02:58.159,0:03:01.920 to maximize the value they can they 0:03:00.480,0:03:03.599 receive from the solutions that you 0:03:01.920,0:03:07.440 provide 0:03:03.599,0:03:08.560 and if you don’t have a clarity about 0:03:07.440,0:03:12.800 what’s going on 0:03:08.560,0:03:14.720 in the customer world post purchase 0:03:12.800,0:03:17.599 then it’s really difficult to align 0:03:14.720,0:03:20.879 yourself to what the customer needs 0:03:17.599,0:03:22.159 so a process may feel 0:03:20.879,0:03:23.680 like a straight jacket to a lot of 0:03:22.159,0:03:24.720 people but actually it provides from 0:03:23.680,0:03:26.640 many people 0:03:24.720,0:03:28.480 sales process and the retention process 0:03:26.640,0:03:30.080 provides guide rails that 0:03:28.480,0:03:32.640 really help them do the right things at 0:03:30.080,0:03:36.000 the right time with the right people 0:03:32.640,0:03:38.319 um well yeah and i know i’m a 0:03:36.000,0:03:40.480 believer of the fact that there’s a you 0:03:38.319,0:03:42.080 know customer journey that takes place 0:03:40.480,0:03:43.920 after they buy 0:03:42.080,0:03:46.640 and you know there’s certain stages of 0:03:43.920,0:03:48.720 adoption of the products they bought 0:03:46.640,0:03:50.560 seeing results and then there’s 0:03:48.720,0:03:53.599 conversations hopefully about 0:03:50.560,0:03:56.000 upsell cross-sell and hopefully renewal 0:03:53.599,0:03:57.120 in any sort of subscription business but 0:03:56.000,0:04:00.239 what does this 0:03:57.120,0:04:01.519 process help us understand what what the 0:04:00.239,0:04:04.080 process really 0:04:01.519,0:04:05.519 is what what are we talking about here 0:04:04.080,0:04:06.239 well it’s very very much like a sales 0:04:05.519,0:04:07.599 process you 0:04:06.239,0:04:10.239 you’re trying to understand where is the 0:04:07.599,0:04:11.840 customer in there thinking and different 0:04:10.239,0:04:14.159 customers and different propositions 0:04:11.840,0:04:17.680 will have different life cycles so 0:04:14.159,0:04:20.320 if i’m buying a uh a locomotive 0:04:17.680,0:04:21.759 for a railway i’ve got a 25 year life 0:04:20.320,0:04:23.520 cycle of that of that but 0:04:21.759,0:04:26.479 but decisions might get made in five 0:04:23.520,0:04:28.639 years time about how do i replace this 0:04:26.479,0:04:29.600 a lot of the software solutions you come 0:04:28.639,0:04:33.360 across uh 0:04:29.600,0:04:36.320 in with the um software as a service 0:04:33.360,0:04:38.720 there’s much more rapid transition from 0:04:36.320,0:04:41.360 is this working yes no 0:04:38.720,0:04:43.280 right we better go and change it and so 0:04:41.360,0:04:43.919 i identify how does a customer think 0:04:43.280,0:04:45.600 about this 0:04:43.919,0:04:47.520 how long does it take them before they 0:04:45.600,0:04:48.320 turn around and say this isn’t working 0:04:47.520,0:04:50.800 let’s fit 0:04:48.320,0:04:53.120 let’s change it uh you know when are 0:04:50.800,0:04:55.919 there review meetings 0:04:53.120,0:04:56.639 so without getting it yeah it can get 0:04:55.919,0:04:58.400 complicated 0:04:56.639,0:04:59.919 uh sometimes you’ll have to adapt yeah 0:04:58.400,0:05:01.680 you’ve got to adapt it to the customer 0:04:59.919,0:05:03.039 and if the customer runs a particular 0:05:01.680,0:05:05.440 process 0:05:03.039,0:05:07.039 understand that process work with it and 0:05:05.440,0:05:09.520 and maximize the benefit 0:05:07.039,0:05:11.520 to the customer and to yourselves i love 0:05:09.520,0:05:13.759 it i know you and i were chatting before 0:05:11.520,0:05:15.759 we went live a little bit about 0:05:13.759,0:05:17.680 you know the customer success role 0:05:15.759,0:05:18.240 account managers and all that kind of 0:05:17.680,0:05:20.080 stuff 0:05:18.240,0:05:21.840 and selfishly i wanted to bring it back 0:05:20.080,0:05:23.199 because we hadn’t finished talking about 0:05:21.840,0:05:24.880 it so 0:05:23.199,0:05:26.560 yes this is john trying to learn 0:05:24.880,0:05:27.600 something in the process too which i 0:05:26.560,0:05:29.840 always do 0:05:27.600,0:05:31.600 um you know i was telling you phil 0:05:29.840,0:05:32.639 though you know so we have customer 0:05:31.600,0:05:35.360 success 0:05:32.639,0:05:37.280 and their role is really about trying to 0:05:35.360,0:05:40.400 ensure that the customer 0:05:37.280,0:05:41.280 successfully adopts successfully 0:05:40.400,0:05:43.360 achieves their 0:05:41.280,0:05:45.360 business goals for which they bought the 0:05:43.360,0:05:47.520 product and then we do have the account 0:05:45.360,0:05:48.560 manager role which is really responsible 0:05:47.520,0:05:50.880 for sort of 0:05:48.560,0:05:52.639 the the business conversations around 0:05:50.880,0:05:55.520 renewals and retention 0:05:52.639,0:05:56.240 you know the finance pieces as well and 0:05:55.520,0:05:58.080 and 0:05:56.240,0:05:59.520 i i was kind of wanted to ask you about 0:05:58.080,0:06:01.199 that and let you react to it a little 0:05:59.520,0:06:02.240 bit because we were starting to have 0:06:01.199,0:06:04.479 that conversation 0:06:02.240,0:06:07.360 when we realized we should go live and 0:06:04.479,0:06:10.080 i’m curious to hear your thinking 0:06:07.360,0:06:12.160 so we’ve been in organizations where we 0:06:10.080,0:06:15.039 have those two roles 0:06:12.160,0:06:16.400 and you do wonder so who’s in charge and 0:06:15.039,0:06:18.800 if they report to different 0:06:16.400,0:06:20.160 in different directions that it comes 0:06:18.800,0:06:23.199 back at the top but 0:06:20.160,0:06:24.639 but on the ground for the customer it 0:06:23.199,0:06:26.000 may be a bit of a fragmented 0:06:24.639,0:06:27.840 relationship 0:06:26.000,0:06:29.199 uh and and one of the one of the 0:06:27.840,0:06:30.720 challenges you have with the customer 0:06:29.199,0:06:31.280 success manager role which is absolutely 0:06:30.720,0:06:34.479 critical 0:06:31.280,0:06:36.080 is uh are they truly responsible for the 0:06:34.479,0:06:38.240 whole retention and of 0:06:36.080,0:06:39.520 as you’ve described it they often are 0:06:38.240,0:06:40.960 not 0:06:39.520,0:06:43.039 and where you end up with a customer 0:06:40.960,0:06:45.360 success manager might well be your 0:06:43.039,0:06:46.240 you’re focused on the level of 0:06:45.360,0:06:47.919 implementation 0:06:46.240,0:06:49.520 getting results from whatever it is 0:06:47.919,0:06:51.840 you’ve installed yeah 0:06:49.520,0:06:52.800 fantastic but but those people as we 0:06:51.840,0:06:54.800 know from the data 0:06:52.800,0:06:56.400 you know there’s 10.2 people involved in 0:06:54.800,0:06:58.639 the decision making process 0:06:56.400,0:07:00.240 there’s probably even more involved in 0:06:58.639,0:07:01.120 uh stakeholders and customer 0:07:00.240,0:07:03.199 stakeholders involved 0:07:01.120,0:07:04.560 in the renewal process i really want to 0:07:03.199,0:07:07.520 do with this 0:07:04.560,0:07:09.360 um and but those are not the people who 0:07:07.520,0:07:11.840 ultimately will make the decision 0:07:09.360,0:07:13.440 the decision will be made because it 0:07:11.840,0:07:15.440 goes back to those senior people again 0:07:13.440,0:07:16.880 do we want to keep this crm system do we 0:07:15.440,0:07:18.639 want to keep this 0:07:16.880,0:07:20.000 content management system and so on will 0:07:18.639,0:07:22.720 be made at a different level 0:07:20.000,0:07:24.479 now if your customer success manager is 0:07:22.720,0:07:27.759 doing great 0:07:24.479,0:07:29.759 value at the at one level is that really 0:07:27.759,0:07:32.000 understood by those at the higher level 0:07:29.759,0:07:33.280 and does it translate into those kpis 0:07:32.000,0:07:35.680 that matter to those guys 0:07:33.280,0:07:37.280 because if you’re not hitting their kpis 0:07:35.680,0:07:41.919 what matters to them 0:07:37.280,0:07:43.520 um it’s all it’s going nowhere and i 0:07:41.919,0:07:45.919 it was interesting recently i don’t know 0:07:43.520,0:07:48.319 if you saw it the the gartner 0:07:45.919,0:07:49.280 ceb research probably about two three 0:07:48.319,0:07:52.479 years ago 0:07:49.280,0:07:53.039 about about retention and that was quite 0:07:52.479,0:07:54.879 striking 0:07:53.039,0:07:57.039 part of the reason why it sort of 0:07:54.879,0:08:00.319 re-energized my thinking but the 0:07:57.039,0:08:02.639 the it showed that you can 0:08:00.319,0:08:04.000 and a lot of companies do this uh in 0:08:02.639,0:08:05.759 order to improve retention 0:08:04.000,0:08:07.599 let’s give them more service better 0:08:05.759,0:08:08.400 service lots of it flood them with 0:08:07.599,0:08:10.080 people 0:08:08.400,0:08:11.280 you know upgrade our systems well 0:08:10.080,0:08:12.879 actually there’s a point where it 0:08:11.280,0:08:14.319 plateaus and it doesn’t matter how much 0:08:12.879,0:08:16.400 more service you give them 0:08:14.319,0:08:19.120 it’s not going to change their view on 0:08:16.400,0:08:22.240 whether they stay with you or go 0:08:19.120,0:08:23.680 um you can have too much of a good thing 0:08:22.240,0:08:26.080 perhaps but 0:08:23.680,0:08:26.879 but actually what was interesting was 0:08:26.080,0:08:28.960 that the 0:08:26.879,0:08:30.000 accompanying data which said if the 0:08:28.960,0:08:32.800 account team 0:08:30.000,0:08:34.560 is continuing to bring new ideas 0:08:32.800,0:08:37.519 continuing to 0:08:34.560,0:08:38.880 challenge you if you like on on on what 0:08:37.519,0:08:40.080 they are doing and whether that’s the 0:08:38.880,0:08:42.719 right thing 0:08:40.080,0:08:44.000 that was massively correlated with 0:08:42.719,0:08:47.360 retention 0:08:44.000,0:08:48.080 um as almost as much as service itself 0:08:47.360,0:08:50.399 so 0:08:48.080,0:08:51.600 you can’t just do service you have to do 0:08:50.399,0:08:53.200 service 0:08:51.600,0:08:55.839 plus i’m not going to call it sales but 0:08:53.200,0:08:57.360 plus continue to work with the customer 0:08:55.839,0:08:57.760 to help them build a better business and 0:08:57.360,0:09:00.240 that 0:08:57.760,0:09:00.880 that would be a sort of mantra i think 0:09:00.240,0:09:03.760 you have to 0:09:00.880,0:09:05.360 you have across account managers and 0:09:03.760,0:09:06.320 customer success managers working 0:09:05.360,0:09:08.560 together 0:09:06.320,0:09:10.320 it’s interesting because i’ve always 0:09:08.560,0:09:13.519 viewed it um 0:09:10.320,0:09:16.640 retention in this way retention begins 0:09:13.519,0:09:18.320 before you sign the deal originally 0:09:16.640,0:09:20.000 because hopefully up front you’ve 0:09:18.320,0:09:21.600 defined what the pain points are what 0:09:20.000,0:09:23.360 the goals are 0:09:21.600,0:09:25.040 and along the way you’re not simply 0:09:23.360,0:09:26.160 focused on adoption although it’s 0:09:25.040,0:09:27.920 important 0:09:26.160,0:09:29.680 you try to reinforce how are we doing 0:09:27.920,0:09:31.440 against these goals 0:09:29.680,0:09:33.360 and if their goals are changing you’re 0:09:31.440,0:09:35.519 trying to reinforce that 0:09:33.360,0:09:36.640 and so every step of the way it’s not 0:09:35.519,0:09:38.240 simply about 0:09:36.640,0:09:40.000 are you using my products but are you 0:09:38.240,0:09:42.640 hitting the goals 0:09:40.000,0:09:44.160 for which you bought it yeah i’m curious 0:09:42.640,0:09:47.279 on your thoughts so phil 0:09:44.160,0:09:49.279 um is is there a better or smoother way 0:09:47.279,0:09:51.760 as you think about the process 0:09:49.279,0:09:53.440 as as you think about it how do we do a 0:09:51.760,0:09:54.080 really good job of tying that sort of 0:09:53.440,0:09:56.560 from that 0:09:54.080,0:09:57.519 point of initial signature all the way 0:09:56.560,0:09:59.440 through and i’m not 0:09:57.519,0:10:03.120 talking about every little step but but 0:09:59.440,0:10:03.120 how should we be thinking about this 0:10:03.519,0:10:07.279 uh well well i think fundamentally it 0:10:05.600,0:10:10.720 comes down to value 0:10:07.279,0:10:12.079 so one of the difficulties for retention 0:10:10.720,0:10:15.120 starts with the sale 0:10:12.079,0:10:16.079 yeah and it is around yes they’ve signed 0:10:15.120,0:10:18.320 up for something 0:10:16.079,0:10:20.240 we sort of know what they want but do we 0:10:18.320,0:10:22.640 are there metrics that says this is the 0:10:20.240,0:10:25.760 value that they are expecting 0:10:22.640,0:10:27.440 um sometimes and sometimes we bury them 0:10:25.760,0:10:29.839 so we don’t have to deal with it 0:10:27.440,0:10:31.360 oh well we yeah or we didn’t know we 0:10:29.839,0:10:32.640 just got we just had a great product the 0:10:31.360,0:10:36.000 guy bought it 0:10:32.640,0:10:38.000 and uh and now we’re delivering it and 0:10:36.000,0:10:40.079 is it actually what value did he expect 0:10:38.000,0:10:41.360 was it a metric or was it a feel-good 0:10:40.079,0:10:43.519 thing 0:10:41.360,0:10:45.519 either way you’ve got to know what the 0:10:43.519,0:10:46.800 value is so you’ve 0:10:45.519,0:10:48.320 you should know that at the end of the 0:10:46.800,0:10:49.040 sales process you should have absolute 0:10:48.320,0:10:51.040 clarity 0:10:49.040,0:10:52.720 ideally you’ve agreed yeah 0:10:51.040,0:10:54.959 implementation by this time 0:10:52.720,0:10:56.640 this is the impact it’s going to make 0:10:54.959,0:10:58.959 this is the roi 0:10:56.640,0:11:00.399 um and then the process of retention 0:10:58.959,0:11:01.839 starts the first step in the process is 0:11:00.399,0:11:03.839 you go back to the customer and say 0:11:01.839,0:11:06.000 well did we deliver what we what you 0:11:03.839,0:11:08.800 expected yeah 0:11:06.000,0:11:10.079 and curiously that’s a difficult 0:11:08.800,0:11:12.399 question for a lot of people but 0:11:10.079,0:11:14.079 it shouldn’t be it should be a really a 0:11:12.399,0:11:16.640 really simple question 0:11:14.079,0:11:18.320 and one that everybody asks because if 0:11:16.640,0:11:20.079 you are not delivering value 0:11:18.320,0:11:21.920 you need to know as soon as you can 0:11:20.079,0:11:24.320 because you then got whatever it is six 0:11:21.920,0:11:25.360 nine twelve months or two years to fix 0:11:24.320,0:11:26.880 it 0:11:25.360,0:11:29.040 if you don’t ask the question you never 0:11:26.880,0:11:32.959 know um 0:11:29.040,0:11:33.360 and so it’s it really is important that 0:11:32.959,0:11:36.399 we 0:11:33.360,0:11:37.600 focus on value and that value has to 0:11:36.399,0:11:39.279 continue through the 0:11:37.600,0:11:41.279 through the the life cycle of the 0:11:39.279,0:11:42.959 contract and then you come up 0:11:41.279,0:11:44.320 up against this problem of well hang on 0:11:42.959,0:11:45.600 the guy who’s made the decision they’ve 0:11:44.320,0:11:47.120 moved on they got promoted because they 0:11:45.600,0:11:49.120 did such a great job 0:11:47.120,0:11:50.720 yeah i think i promoted some some new 0:11:49.120,0:11:52.079 guys come in and and 0:11:50.720,0:11:53.680 what does a new guy want to do he wants 0:11:52.079,0:11:55.360 to show that he can make things better 0:11:53.680,0:11:57.519 and change things 0:11:55.360,0:11:59.120 so is he going to muck around with what 0:11:57.519,0:12:02.079 his princess has done 0:11:59.120,0:12:03.680 well maybe but part possibly because he 0:12:02.079,0:12:04.720 doesn’t understand the value you’ve just 0:12:03.680,0:12:08.560 delivered so 0:12:04.720,0:12:10.079 you have to keep reconfirming and 0:12:08.560,0:12:12.320 and rechecking the value you’re 0:12:10.079,0:12:15.279 delivering and it’s it’s so value 0:12:12.320,0:12:16.480 sort of underpins everything at some 0:12:15.279,0:12:18.959 point it’s going to drop off 0:12:16.480,0:12:20.079 it’s at some point maybe you can’t keep 0:12:18.959,0:12:22.000 up with developments 0:12:20.079,0:12:23.440 the value goes down they say look we 0:12:22.000,0:12:24.959 really just need to get rid of this and 0:12:23.440,0:12:25.680 replace the whole thing with something 0:12:24.959,0:12:29.120 else 0:12:25.680,0:12:32.160 fine let’s uh you have to go with that 0:12:29.120,0:12:33.279 so um uh that that’s something you have 0:12:32.160,0:12:34.480 to be aware of but 0:12:33.279,0:12:36.639 understanding the value that the 0:12:34.480,0:12:39.360 customer is looking for and delivering 0:12:36.639,0:12:40.880 it is key you get so many important 0:12:39.360,0:12:42.320 points in there phil and i hope it’s 0:12:40.880,0:12:43.360 okay that i’m jumping around on you 0:12:42.320,0:12:46.079 because you’re in the show 0:12:43.360,0:12:47.920 any cool thoughts um you know it’s so 0:12:46.079,0:12:48.959 often what happens is the new person 0:12:47.920,0:12:50.320 joins the project 0:12:48.959,0:12:53.279 whether they the other person got 0:12:50.320,0:12:56.399 promoted or went to another company 0:12:53.279,0:12:58.959 and they don’t even understand what the 0:12:56.399,0:13:02.000 point of the project even was 0:12:58.959,0:13:02.880 is there a role for how should the 0:13:02.000,0:13:06.480 customer 0:13:02.880,0:13:07.519 or the vendor i should say re-educate 0:13:06.480,0:13:10.160 them on here’s how 0:13:07.519,0:13:10.880 why your company bought it here’s how 0:13:10.160,0:13:13.040 we’ve been 0:13:10.880,0:13:14.079 you know how do you do a sales job 0:13:13.040,0:13:16.720 almost 0:13:14.079,0:13:18.959 of that new person yeah it’s just sort 0:13:16.720,0:13:21.200 of a sales job it’s sort of an education 0:13:18.959,0:13:23.920 process so we used to run in our in our 0:13:21.200,0:13:25.040 training at uh my former company ran a 0:13:23.920,0:13:27.680 role play around this 0:13:25.040,0:13:28.720 so they go through a sales process role 0:13:27.680,0:13:30.480 and we say right okay 0:13:28.720,0:13:31.920 now you’re one year into the contract 0:13:30.480,0:13:33.839 new guy comes in 0:13:31.920,0:13:36.000 and he and he’s used your competitor 0:13:33.839,0:13:37.760 before so he’s sort of anti-you 0:13:36.000,0:13:39.279 from day one or he’s looking for a way 0:13:37.760,0:13:41.040 to change things so 0:13:39.279,0:13:42.800 yeah how do you prove it so great 0:13:41.040,0:13:44.079 question so it 0:13:42.800,0:13:45.920 partly comes back to the way in which 0:13:44.079,0:13:49.120 you’ve proven value as you go along 0:13:45.920,0:13:49.920 so um yes we can have a great 0:13:49.120,0:13:51.279 conversation 0:13:49.920,0:13:53.279 and you can agree that we’ve delivered 0:13:51.279,0:13:56.399 the value that you expected but 0:13:53.279,0:13:57.760 is that documented or is is that even if 0:13:56.399,0:14:00.000 it’s just an email but 0:13:57.760,0:14:01.519 have i shown you have i showed you the 0:14:00.000,0:14:03.839 ri roi 0:14:01.519,0:14:04.720 calculation and have you accepted it 0:14:03.839,0:14:07.360 actually 0:14:04.720,0:14:07.920 that’s a little higher than i think of 0:14:07.360,0:14:09.839 it 0:14:07.920,0:14:12.240 let’s have a conversation let’s sort of 0:14:09.839,0:14:14.160 document it and sign off 0:14:12.240,0:14:15.440 and if you think about the sales process 0:14:14.160,0:14:18.000 remember the 0:14:15.440,0:14:18.800 uh verifiable outcomes i think ibm used 0:14:18.000,0:14:21.519 to call them 0:14:18.800,0:14:23.519 yeah in signature setting verifiable 0:14:21.519,0:14:25.279 outcomes what is it that you need the 0:14:23.519,0:14:26.639 customer to do 0:14:25.279,0:14:28.480 three months into the contract you need 0:14:26.639,0:14:30.560 them to say yes 0:14:28.480,0:14:32.399 you’ve delivered the value i expected 0:14:30.560,0:14:34.959 i’m really happy 0:14:32.399,0:14:36.560 almost sign off on it uh and what do you 0:14:34.959,0:14:37.040 do after six months nine months twelve 0:14:36.560,0:14:40.240 months 0:14:37.040,0:14:42.639 you need to keep that going and just 0:14:40.240,0:14:45.680 really for transparency but also to know 0:14:42.639,0:14:48.079 am i about to get uh 0:14:45.680,0:14:49.360 burned by by something else coming in or 0:14:48.079,0:14:52.160 a change somewhere 0:14:49.360,0:14:54.240 well the point i mean i’d be curious if 0:14:52.160,0:14:56.480 you disagree with me phil but 0:14:54.240,0:14:58.000 i think the original point of the qbr 0:14:56.480,0:15:00.720 you know the quarterly business review 0:14:58.000,0:15:03.040 was to sit down and do exactly that but 0:15:00.720,0:15:06.880 so often it seems like they can 0:15:03.040,0:15:09.760 they’ve been um changed into almost 0:15:06.880,0:15:12.000 roger patting yourself on the back 0:15:09.760,0:15:15.199 here’s what we accomplished last quarter 0:15:12.000,0:15:17.360 thank you yes to a conversation about 0:15:15.199,0:15:19.440 have we achieved those goals how do we 0:15:17.360,0:15:21.199 you know do we refine the goals have the 0:15:19.440,0:15:22.800 problems change and all of that 0:15:21.199,0:15:24.639 they’re much more about hey here’s all 0:15:22.800,0:15:25.120 the things we’ve done how do we how do 0:15:24.639,0:15:28.160 we 0:15:25.120,0:15:29.519 is the qbr the right place for that or 0:15:28.160,0:15:31.120 is there something different we should 0:15:29.519,0:15:33.120 be trying to do 0:15:31.120,0:15:34.240 you certainly need to have a formalized 0:15:33.120,0:15:36.320 structure like a 0:15:34.240,0:15:37.920 qbi and it’s a it’s a great place to 0:15:36.320,0:15:39.680 have it just make sure you’ve got the 0:15:37.920,0:15:41.199 right components in there 0:15:39.680,0:15:43.440 yeah and i was talking to this guy 0:15:41.199,0:15:44.959 yesterday an old colleague 0:15:43.440,0:15:47.759 in hong kong works for a different firm 0:15:44.959,0:15:49.839 now uh yesterday morning and they were 0:15:47.759,0:15:51.440 he was talking about these qbr’s they do 0:15:49.839,0:15:53.279 at three months six months nine months 0:15:51.440,0:15:55.040 12 months 0:15:53.279,0:15:56.320 and actually he was although i don’t 0:15:55.040,0:15:57.440 think he was involved at the time he was 0:15:56.320,0:16:00.079 he was 0:15:57.440,0:16:01.759 basically reflecting something we’d done 0:16:00.079,0:16:04.959 10 15 years ago or 0:16:01.759,0:16:07.199 one of our managers have done in in asia 0:16:04.959,0:16:08.079 and it was a really cool i thought it 0:16:07.199,0:16:11.839 was really cool 0:16:08.079,0:16:13.440 yeah review meeting where you you bring 0:16:11.839,0:16:15.360 together all the data the customer 0:16:13.440,0:16:16.720 needs to see and and it’s a red amber 0:16:15.360,0:16:19.440 green 0:16:16.720,0:16:21.360 but it’s basically a it’s not a finger 0:16:19.440,0:16:23.519 pointing this is red because 0:16:21.360,0:16:24.720 it’s just saying look if you carry on at 0:16:23.519,0:16:26.399 this sort of level 0:16:24.720,0:16:27.759 you might something might break and it 0:16:26.399,0:16:28.800 might fall over and then there’ll be 0:16:27.759,0:16:30.639 consequences 0:16:28.800,0:16:32.560 okay you’re probably okay for six months 0:16:30.639,0:16:35.279 but you need to think about either 0:16:32.560,0:16:37.279 changing your usage pattern or thinking 0:16:35.279,0:16:38.480 about the hard way you’re running on or 0:16:37.279,0:16:39.839 think about the way in which you’re 0:16:38.480,0:16:42.720 consuming data 0:16:39.839,0:16:43.440 and so on so it became a um this is 0:16:42.720,0:16:46.800 where we’re at 0:16:43.440,0:16:48.320 factual uh this is where you need to be 0:16:46.800,0:16:50.959 in 12 months time 0:16:48.320,0:16:52.320 you need to watch out for this stuff um 0:16:50.959,0:16:54.560 and and this 0:16:52.320,0:16:56.800 xcody i was talking to yesterday they’re 0:16:54.560,0:16:59.279 doing that and it’s a great way of 0:16:56.800,0:17:00.959 having a positive transparent 0:16:59.279,0:17:04.000 conversation with 0:17:00.959,0:17:06.559 customers as a positive outcome now 0:17:04.000,0:17:07.919 add to that you then say okay how’s your 0:17:06.559,0:17:09.280 business changing and that there’s a 0:17:07.919,0:17:10.959 section in your 0:17:09.280,0:17:12.319 review meeting that says how’s your 0:17:10.959,0:17:14.319 business changing what’s 0:17:12.319,0:17:15.439 really important and you’ve got to ask 0:17:14.319,0:17:18.160 those questions so 0:17:15.439,0:17:20.400 coming back to who’s in that meeting 0:17:18.160,0:17:23.280 account manager customer success manager 0:17:20.400,0:17:26.720 if you’ve got that split role whoever’s 0:17:23.280,0:17:30.640 running the meeting has to be equipped 0:17:26.720,0:17:32.880 to ask those questions and be able to 0:17:30.640,0:17:34.160 to have that conversation at the right 0:17:32.880,0:17:36.640 level so 0:17:34.160,0:17:38.400 we’re talking here about users managers 0:17:36.640,0:17:41.679 executive level they have to be 0:17:38.400,0:17:44.480 competent to do all three i like that 0:17:41.679,0:17:46.320 you know and you mentioned earlier 0:17:44.480,0:17:47.760 something i wanted to come back to phil 0:17:46.320,0:17:49.360 you were talking about 0:17:47.760,0:17:51.679 and you just refer to it again at the 0:17:49.360,0:17:54.880 right level sometimes 0:17:51.679,0:17:56.880 you know these qbrs and just retention 0:17:54.880,0:17:59.360 and the whole rollout of projects and 0:17:56.880,0:18:01.679 stuff often happens with a team that’s 0:17:59.360,0:18:05.039 not at the decision-making level 0:18:01.679,0:18:07.200 yeah and you have no visibility as the 0:18:05.039,0:18:08.880 vendor as the product company whatever 0:18:07.200,0:18:10.960 in terms of how those internal 0:18:08.880,0:18:12.640 conversations are going 0:18:10.960,0:18:15.120 you know you may think you’re doing 0:18:12.640,0:18:17.600 great but they may be saying internally 0:18:15.120,0:18:19.360 this isn’t so good how do you start how 0:18:17.600,0:18:22.400 do you 0:18:19.360,0:18:23.120 start to pull in either the the decision 0:18:22.400,0:18:24.559 maker 0:18:23.120,0:18:27.360 or how do you at least make sure they’re 0:18:24.559,0:18:28.080 aware of of your perspective on how it’s 0:18:27.360,0:18:31.039 going 0:18:28.080,0:18:32.960 so that you’re not surprised too yeah so 0:18:31.039,0:18:35.600 it sort of comes back to the whole the 0:18:32.960,0:18:37.200 the way in which you sell so um 0:18:35.600,0:18:38.400 hopefully you’ve sold in the right way 0:18:37.200,0:18:40.720 so the guy who brought 0:18:38.400,0:18:42.080 who initiated the project and decided on 0:18:40.720,0:18:44.640 it is still involved 0:18:42.080,0:18:45.919 you’ve got commitment from there from 0:18:44.640,0:18:47.600 them but if not you’re going to have to 0:18:45.919,0:18:48.640 develop those contacts in the same way 0:18:47.600,0:18:52.000 that you develop them 0:18:48.640,0:18:52.960 in a sales opportunity uh who matters go 0:18:52.000,0:18:54.640 and actually 0:18:52.960,0:18:56.480 leverage those meetings to go out and 0:18:54.640,0:18:56.960 meet people if you’ve got a good story 0:18:56.480,0:18:59.600 to tell 0:18:56.960,0:19:00.720 your contacts in the customer should be 0:18:59.600,0:19:02.640 happy for you to do that 0:19:00.720,0:19:04.880 and give you referrals all over the 0:19:02.640,0:19:07.840 place because you’ve got a great roi 0:19:04.880,0:19:09.120 story so um so why not boast about it 0:19:07.840,0:19:12.480 it’s got value for them 0:19:09.120,0:19:13.760 on a personal level um so 0:19:12.480,0:19:15.840 you’ve but you’ve got to do that 0:19:13.760,0:19:17.280 actively you can’t you can’t just sit 0:19:15.840,0:19:18.320 there and hope that these guys are going 0:19:17.280,0:19:19.600 to notice 0:19:18.320,0:19:21.360 you’ve got to make sure they notice 0:19:19.600,0:19:22.960 because hoping it’s like opportunity 0:19:21.360,0:19:24.160 management you can’t hope guess or 0:19:22.960,0:19:27.360 assume 0:19:24.160,0:19:29.120 you have to know because otherwise 0:19:27.360,0:19:31.120 you’re potentially in trouble yeah no i 0:19:29.120,0:19:33.280 like that a lot and um 0:19:31.120,0:19:35.280 i like that a lot and i’ve seen it so 0:19:33.280,0:19:36.480 many times over and over again where you 0:19:35.280,0:19:39.039 get into 0:19:36.480,0:19:40.480 maybe it’s one division one one business 0:19:39.039,0:19:43.440 unit whatever 0:19:40.480,0:19:44.480 and nail it be successful but the whole 0:19:43.440,0:19:46.240 time through 0:19:44.480,0:19:48.400 you’re also trying to find other people 0:19:46.240,0:19:51.360 you can share that story with internally 0:19:48.400,0:19:53.039 again making that the customer that 0:19:51.360,0:19:55.200 you’re working with the hero 0:19:53.039,0:19:56.720 hey they’re the ones having huge success 0:19:55.200,0:19:59.039 they want to brag about it 0:19:56.720,0:19:59.919 they want people to know about it 0:19:59.039,0:20:02.080 absolutely 0:19:59.919,0:20:03.120 let me switch gears a little bit so 0:20:02.080,0:20:04.960 we’ve talked about a 0:20:03.120,0:20:07.200 number of really important things around 0:20:04.960,0:20:09.280 retention i want to bring it back to the 0:20:07.200,0:20:10.400 training slash enablement side for a 0:20:09.280,0:20:13.280 second though 0:20:10.400,0:20:17.200 how on earth should enablement teams be 0:20:13.280,0:20:19.600 thinking about their roles in supporting 0:20:17.200,0:20:21.520 i’ll say retention broadly and see where 0:20:19.600,0:20:24.559 we go from there 0:20:21.520,0:20:28.799 uh yes so enablement does 0:20:24.559,0:20:30.159 encompass um training sometimes i think 0:20:28.799,0:20:32.000 i think one of the key points i would 0:20:30.159,0:20:33.280 start at from a label 0:20:32.000,0:20:35.520 perspective and i’m not sure how many 0:20:33.280,0:20:36.080 enablement teams do this i haven’t seen 0:20:35.520,0:20:39.280 too many 0:20:36.080,0:20:41.120 is is win-loss analysis 0:20:39.280,0:20:42.960 uh and now i think that belongs to 0:20:41.120,0:20:45.440 enablement um 0:20:42.960,0:20:46.880 someone’s got to go in there and find 0:20:45.440,0:20:49.600 out why did we lose why do we 0:20:46.880,0:20:50.640 why do we win and the losing is is 0:20:49.600,0:20:52.559 always an interesting one i 0:20:50.640,0:20:54.320 always remember in the crm you’d have a 0:20:52.559,0:20:55.520 drop down this is why we lost the deal 0:20:54.320,0:20:57.039 this is whatever this is why the 0:20:55.520,0:20:58.799 customer cancelled 0:20:57.039,0:21:00.400 and it usually says the product was 0:20:58.799,0:21:02.240 rubbish or 0:21:00.400,0:21:03.840 hey price the price was too high all the 0:21:02.240,0:21:04.480 competitors came in with a better better 0:21:03.840,0:21:06.320 proposition 0:21:04.480,0:21:07.760 yeah but it never what never says is the 0:21:06.320,0:21:09.919 account team screwed up 0:21:07.760,0:21:12.559 and and that’s fair enough but again 0:21:09.919,0:21:15.520 going back to the data we know from 0:21:12.559,0:21:17.440 ceb gartner you know if 53 of the reason 0:21:15.520,0:21:18.320 why customers buy and stay loyal to a 0:21:17.440,0:21:20.880 supplier 0:21:18.320,0:21:21.520 is the sales experience why isn’t that 0:21:20.880,0:21:24.799 on the drop 0:21:21.520,0:21:28.159 down so so you really need to 0:21:24.799,0:21:30.480 don’t rely on simplistic data like that 0:21:28.159,0:21:33.120 a little drop down or a number 0:21:30.480,0:21:34.159 go and inspect and ask the customer so 0:21:33.120,0:21:35.679 tell me why 0:21:34.159,0:21:37.440 why are you canceling what’s changing 0:21:35.679,0:21:40.480 your business 0:21:37.440,0:21:42.080 and equally you do that for wins so you 0:21:40.480,0:21:43.440 need to know why people have what have 0:21:42.080,0:21:44.159 actually bought from you because it 0:21:43.440,0:21:45.919 might be 0:21:44.159,0:21:48.080 the account management experience was 0:21:45.919,0:21:49.360 fantastic it wasn’t about the product at 0:21:48.080,0:21:51.520 all so don’t 0:21:49.360,0:21:52.960 don’t delude yourself that the product’s 0:21:51.520,0:21:53.919 fantastic if it’s really the account 0:21:52.960,0:21:55.919 management 0:21:53.919,0:21:57.520 so know why you win know why you lose 0:21:55.919,0:21:59.840 and i think that’s an important 0:21:57.520,0:22:03.360 sales label focus and that now i think 0:21:59.840,0:22:03.360 that you know there’s playbooks around 0:22:04.240,0:22:08.240 like sales playbooks retention playbooks 0:22:06.559,0:22:09.520 um they can help with account planning 0:22:08.240,0:22:12.640 that’s key i mean 0:22:09.520,0:22:14.720 big accounts need a customized 0:22:12.640,0:22:18.240 account playbook that includes this is 0:22:14.720,0:22:18.240 how we are going to retain the business 0:22:18.720,0:22:23.200 account planning fill but they don’t 0:22:21.200,0:22:24.960 necessarily do the retention planning as 0:22:23.200,0:22:28.640 part of that process 0:22:24.960,0:22:30.480 um or or do you disagree with that do 0:22:28.640,0:22:31.919 they do a good enough job and if not 0:22:30.480,0:22:35.840 what’s missing 0:22:31.919,0:22:37.120 i i haven’t seen enough from 0:22:35.840,0:22:38.640 companies i haven’t worked with i’ve 0:22:37.120,0:22:39.200 worked with a number of companies and 0:22:38.640,0:22:41.120 been 0:22:39.200,0:22:43.120 lucky to be involved in in sessions with 0:22:41.120,0:22:45.280 a number of different companies 0:22:43.120,0:22:46.720 and account planning tends to be about 0:22:45.280,0:22:50.400 how do we sell more 0:22:46.720,0:22:54.000 yeah um rather than how do we make sure 0:22:50.400,0:22:56.880 what we’ve got is going to stick um 0:22:54.000,0:22:57.360 and that comes back to one of the one 0:22:56.880,0:22:59.600 the 0:22:57.360,0:23:00.720 attention really doesn’t get the 0:22:59.600,0:23:03.440 traction it needs 0:23:00.720,0:23:05.440 is because uh to point that if i’m going 0:23:03.440,0:23:07.760 to point a finger at sales leadership 0:23:05.440,0:23:09.760 is because sales leadership loves the 0:23:07.760,0:23:12.880 sales 0:23:09.760,0:23:13.840 yeah but up on the side or on the logo 0:23:12.880,0:23:16.799 yeah 0:23:13.840,0:23:18.080 and and those guys get the big bucks for 0:23:16.799,0:23:20.640 making the big sales 0:23:18.080,0:23:23.360 and actually uh they need to have a 0:23:20.640,0:23:25.520 culture in their organization 0:23:23.360,0:23:27.360 where retention is recognized and 0:23:25.520,0:23:29.440 appreciated for what it is which is 0:23:27.360,0:23:31.120 this is how why the firm is in business 0:23:29.440,0:23:33.280 and why we’re why we are going to be in 0:23:31.120,0:23:35.039 business for the next 20 30 years 0:23:33.280,0:23:36.320 because we are really helping our 0:23:35.039,0:23:37.760 customers you know 0:23:36.320,0:23:41.200 delivering value to our customers and 0:23:37.760,0:23:41.200 they love us for it so 0:23:41.360,0:23:45.279 that and i’ve seen it in the past you 0:23:43.440,0:23:47.440 have a retention target and then you say 0:23:45.279,0:23:49.919 okay so what are we going to do to get 0:23:47.440,0:23:51.200 there or we’re going to do more service 0:23:49.919,0:23:54.320 okay 0:23:51.200,0:23:56.400 uh anything else and there’s no real 0:23:54.320,0:23:57.520 no real engagement from the top 0:23:56.400,0:23:59.840 leadership 0:23:57.520,0:24:01.919 and i’m being big broad brush here but 0:23:59.840,0:24:04.240 you don’t hear necessarily from 0:24:01.919,0:24:05.919 the companies i’ve spoken to that top 0:24:04.240,0:24:08.080 leadership is really helping them 0:24:05.919,0:24:10.480 on that retention journey in the way 0:24:08.080,0:24:12.400 that they could um 0:24:10.480,0:24:14.400 they’re not calculating roi because it’s 0:24:12.400,0:24:17.360 hard they’re not calculating value 0:24:14.400,0:24:17.360 because it’s hard so 0:24:17.600,0:24:23.520 maybe maybe they don’t know how to do it 0:24:21.120,0:24:25.360 and maybe that’s that’s the reason yeah 0:24:23.520,0:24:27.360 would would you advocate that sales 0:24:25.360,0:24:28.960 leaders get compensated in part based 0:24:27.360,0:24:30.720 upon retention 0:24:28.960,0:24:32.480 well i think they probably do you know 0:24:30.720,0:24:35.760 it’ll be on many deals 0:24:32.480,0:24:38.400 net sales many many do um but it 0:24:35.760,0:24:40.080 it so you can if you could if you have a 0:24:38.400,0:24:41.360 great sales organization you can win 0:24:40.080,0:24:44.240 more deals 0:24:41.360,0:24:46.400 but interestingly of course if you just 0:24:44.240,0:24:48.000 raise your 0:24:46.400,0:24:49.760 only one other things about retention i 0:24:48.000,0:24:52.240 should mention 0:24:49.760,0:24:53.200 is is the price increase particularly in 0:24:52.240,0:24:54.080 the sas business 0:24:53.200,0:24:56.480 you know if you’re going to increase 0:24:54.080,0:24:58.400 your price by three four percent a year 0:24:56.480,0:25:00.159 uh your big customers they’re not seeing 0:24:58.400,0:25:00.880 value you’re gonna start to chip away at 0:25:00.159,0:25:03.440 that and take it 0:25:00.880,0:25:04.799 take a one percent off yeah so it’s a 0:25:03.440,0:25:05.360 three percent not a four percent rise 0:25:04.799,0:25:07.360 well 0:25:05.360,0:25:08.559 well that translates into an eight 0:25:07.360,0:25:11.440 percent impact 0:25:08.559,0:25:12.960 on average to your profit margins now 0:25:11.440,0:25:15.760 that’s a massive difference 0:25:12.960,0:25:16.159 so um depends how a little bit how 0:25:15.760,0:25:18.880 they’re 0:25:16.159,0:25:19.919 remunerated is it on profit is it on 0:25:18.880,0:25:22.159 gross sales 0:25:19.919,0:25:23.200 depends how they’ve sold their business 0:25:22.159,0:25:27.440 plan to their 0:25:23.200,0:25:29.039 shareholders or to the directors so um 0:25:27.440,0:25:31.520 i i would love to see them say right 0:25:29.039,0:25:33.039 we’re going to aim for 96 97 0:25:31.520,0:25:35.360 retention and here’s how we’re going to 0:25:33.039,0:25:36.880 do it and see the impact on the bottom 0:25:35.360,0:25:38.799 on the bottom line 0:25:36.880,0:25:41.440 uh rather than necessarily moving the 0:25:38.799,0:25:43.440 needle on the top line because 0:25:41.440,0:25:44.720 people sign bad deals as well and 0:25:43.440,0:25:45.760 there’s some deals they should never 0:25:44.720,0:25:48.559 sign 0:25:45.760,0:25:50.400 so um you put the pressure on the top 0:25:48.559,0:25:53.120 line sometimes you get 0:25:50.400,0:25:54.640 uh a lousy impact on the bottom line 0:25:53.120,0:25:55.760 because you’ve done deals you should 0:25:54.640,0:26:00.000 never have done 0:25:55.760,0:26:02.240 so it’s just one one area where i think 0:26:00.000,0:26:03.679 the metrics are really important nice 0:26:02.240,0:26:04.880 yeah and we’ve all seen those deals 0:26:03.679,0:26:06.960 we’ve all seen those deals where it’s 0:26:04.880,0:26:08.640 like crap why did we agree we were going 0:26:06.960,0:26:11.279 to do this 0:26:08.640,0:26:13.840 and you know why they agree he knows why 0:26:11.279,0:26:17.760 they agree because somebody somewhere 0:26:13.840,0:26:21.200 has said i need this to achieve my goal 0:26:17.760,0:26:24.159 and uh i’ll discount it by 40 what 0:26:21.200,0:26:25.679 yeah so yeah and we’re not going to make 0:26:24.159,0:26:27.039 any money on it and it’s going to kill 0:26:25.679,0:26:30.159 us on the back end yeah 0:26:27.039,0:26:31.200 exactly but so so and then fundamentally 0:26:30.159,0:26:33.279 or just to make it a 0:26:31.200,0:26:34.480 really big issue it comes down to the 0:26:33.279,0:26:37.360 culture if you’ve got 0:26:34.480,0:26:38.400 lead sales leaders who are doing that 0:26:37.360,0:26:40.240 why is that happening well that’s 0:26:38.400,0:26:43.679 because the sales culture 0:26:40.240,0:26:46.480 is not thinking about customer first 0:26:43.679,0:26:47.520 uh deliver value uh how do we drive 0:26:46.480,0:26:51.840 profit for the shelves 0:26:47.520,0:26:54.000 it’s it’s driven by something else 0:26:51.840,0:26:55.120 yeah it goes back to the old wells fargo 0:26:54.000,0:26:56.960 failures about oh 0:26:55.120,0:26:58.159 we just have to keep making sales as 0:26:56.960,0:26:59.840 opposed to 0:26:58.159,0:27:02.400 that being the only focus and that’s 0:26:59.840,0:27:04.240 when things go really badly 0:27:02.400,0:27:05.679 let me ask you this phil we’re 29 0:27:04.240,0:27:06.559 minutes in so i want to be sensitive to 0:27:05.679,0:27:08.240 the time 0:27:06.559,0:27:10.159 okay is there anything we didn’t touch 0:27:08.240,0:27:11.279 upon they like jeez john i want to make 0:27:10.159,0:27:16.559 sure to share this 0:27:11.279,0:27:16.559 this point with everybody um 0:27:16.720,0:27:20.720 uh you asked me that question before and 0:27:18.799,0:27:24.080 i was thinking uh i really 0:27:20.720,0:27:25.520 answered and asked this um that’s okay 0:27:24.080,0:27:26.399 if you don’t 0:27:25.520,0:27:28.399 because we haven’t talked about 0:27:26.399,0:27:30.320 technology i’m not i’m not a technical 0:27:28.399,0:27:31.600 guy but i think i think um 0:27:30.320,0:27:34.159 metrics is one of those things that 0:27:31.600,0:27:35.919 comes out of technology 0:27:34.159,0:27:38.720 that i think we have to be wary of i 0:27:35.919,0:27:41.919 think too often we are 0:27:38.720,0:27:42.640 really focused on data points fine it 0:27:41.919,0:27:46.240 tells us 0:27:42.640,0:27:48.080 something but it’s a quantitative 0:27:46.240,0:27:49.840 number it’s not qualitative and i think 0:27:48.080,0:27:51.679 where 0:27:49.840,0:27:53.600 all this data is great but you have to 0:27:51.679,0:27:56.240 go and understand where it’s coming from 0:27:53.600,0:27:57.679 what it’s telling you and actually test 0:27:56.240,0:28:01.360 whether it’s real 0:27:57.679,0:28:03.679 so so to what extent our sales leaders 0:28:01.360,0:28:05.279 inspecting and observing what their 0:28:03.679,0:28:06.240 managers are doing and how much of their 0:28:05.279,0:28:08.960 managers 0:28:06.240,0:28:10.399 observing what the frontline’s doing 0:28:08.960,0:28:13.840 because you get all this data whether 0:28:10.399,0:28:15.679 it’s a pipeline or a retention metric 0:28:13.840,0:28:16.880 but you don’t know what it really means 0:28:15.679,0:28:19.600 on the ground 0:28:16.880,0:28:22.320 uh and so i think there is a frustration 0:28:19.600,0:28:24.880 i’ve seen in many 0:28:22.320,0:28:25.679 we talked to friends and colleagues so 0:28:24.880,0:28:28.799 many managers 0:28:25.679,0:28:30.159 are not doing the right things because 0:28:28.799,0:28:32.720 they’re overworked they’ve got so so 0:28:30.159,0:28:33.919 much to do sure but they have to get out 0:28:32.720,0:28:37.600 there and 0:28:33.919,0:28:40.159 observe give feedback and coach um 0:28:37.600,0:28:41.919 and that’s a massive driver for uh for 0:28:40.159,0:28:43.919 performance enhancement 0:28:41.919,0:28:46.240 yeah i mean it’s not happening yeah 0:28:43.919,0:28:49.919 every study i ever see 0:28:46.240,0:28:51.840 i’ve ever seen around sales performance 0:28:49.919,0:28:53.600 always comes back and points at coaching 0:28:51.840,0:28:56.399 as the number one 0:28:53.600,0:28:57.440 most impactful activity you could 0:28:56.399,0:28:59.360 perform 0:28:57.440,0:29:00.880 and it’s hard because you’re right so 0:28:59.360,0:29:01.840 many people are buried they don’t take 0:29:00.880,0:29:03.039 the time 0:29:01.840,0:29:05.120 because they don’t feel like they have 0:29:03.039,0:29:06.640 the time and they get focused in on some 0:29:05.120,0:29:08.240 of the 0:29:06.640,0:29:09.600 activities that feel right but not 0:29:08.240,0:29:10.399 they’re not necessarily in the right 0:29:09.600,0:29:13.760 activities 0:29:10.399,0:29:16.480 yeah although the recent research 0:29:13.760,0:29:17.840 who was it uh vantage partners i can’t 0:29:16.480,0:29:20.399 remember the name now um 0:29:17.840,0:29:21.279 was got some great data crushing the 0:29:20.399,0:29:22.960 quota 0:29:21.279,0:29:25.360 question quote i think was the book 0:29:22.960,0:29:28.240 great data on it’s activity focused 0:29:25.360,0:29:29.600 coaching that really drives performance 0:29:28.240,0:29:31.120 rather than just 0:29:29.600,0:29:32.799 nice coaching yeah enjoying nice 0:29:31.120,0:29:35.760 coaching that’s unfair 0:29:32.799,0:29:37.440 generic generic coaching but but but 0:29:35.760,0:29:39.520 actually focus on 0:29:37.440,0:29:40.559 how are you planning for this meeting 0:29:39.520,0:29:41.840 how are you planning for this 0:29:40.559,0:29:43.440 negotiation 0:29:41.840,0:29:45.760 how did you do in that negotiation 0:29:43.440,0:29:47.760 conversation and that drives a much 0:29:45.760,0:29:49.279 greater performance enhancement 0:29:47.760,0:29:50.880 and it’s it’s very tangible sales 0:29:49.279,0:29:53.360 managers can get hold of that but 0:29:50.880,0:29:54.159 um but they’ve they’ve got to be 0:29:53.360,0:29:55.840 courageous and 0:29:54.159,0:29:58.399 actually expose themselves to doing 0:29:55.840,0:30:00.640 coaching and for some reason 0:29:58.399,0:30:02.320 a number of them are reluctant but if 0:30:00.640,0:30:03.600 everyone was doing that i think we’d see 0:30:02.320,0:30:05.919 a 0:30:03.600,0:30:07.360 much more professional sales force in in 0:30:05.919,0:30:09.840 so many different companies 0:30:07.360,0:30:11.600 i i agree and the the the point i’ll 0:30:09.840,0:30:13.120 throw out there and i’ll let you react 0:30:11.600,0:30:15.600 to it before we get to the end 0:30:13.120,0:30:16.240 is i think you know the sales managers 0:30:15.600,0:30:20.080 sometimes 0:30:16.240,0:30:22.880 are not giving it given enough training 0:30:20.080,0:30:25.279 not uh given sort of priorities that say 0:30:22.880,0:30:26.960 these are the things you should be doing 0:30:25.279,0:30:29.360 and with the lack of training and the 0:30:26.960,0:30:31.039 lack of coaching from above 0:30:29.360,0:30:32.640 they fall back to doing what they’ve 0:30:31.039,0:30:33.440 done all along in their careers to be 0:30:32.640,0:30:35.919 successful 0:30:33.440,0:30:37.919 certainly new sales managers and that’s 0:30:35.919,0:30:40.559 helping everybody close deals 0:30:37.919,0:30:41.760 so i think we need to the onus needs to 0:30:40.559,0:30:43.520 be on the company 0:30:41.760,0:30:46.080 to give them the guidance and all of 0:30:43.520,0:30:47.679 that for sales managers to say 0:30:46.080,0:30:49.520 here’s what you need to do and here’s 0:30:47.679,0:30:52.080 how to do it 0:30:49.520,0:30:53.120 absolutely and then the senior leaders 0:30:52.080,0:30:55.360 have to walk the 0:30:53.120,0:30:57.039 walk and not just talk the talk they 0:30:55.360,0:30:58.559 have to actually do it themselves so 0:30:57.039,0:31:00.559 sit in and observe a meeting give 0:30:58.559,0:31:04.000 feedback don’t don’t just 0:31:00.559,0:31:06.559 interfere uh be that be there 0:31:04.000,0:31:08.320 to to provide feedback um and and to 0:31:06.559,0:31:10.799 help their managers get better because 0:31:08.320,0:31:12.799 um you know we all need help from time 0:31:10.799,0:31:14.159 to time every new job you step into is a 0:31:12.799,0:31:16.960 is a new 0:31:14.159,0:31:18.320 journey and you need help to to get your 0:31:16.960,0:31:19.600 head around it fast 0:31:18.320,0:31:21.519 there’s a lot of great people out there 0:31:19.600,0:31:23.760 who can do that but there’s a lot 0:31:21.519,0:31:24.960 who just needs a bit of support so don’t 0:31:23.760,0:31:27.360 don’t assume they need 0:31:24.960,0:31:28.320 they can do it you’ve got to check what 0:31:27.360,0:31:30.240 can they do it 0:31:28.320,0:31:32.000 and if you can’t how can i help them i 0:31:30.240,0:31:33.840 was going to say you know and robin 0:31:32.000,0:31:35.679 and people know robin robin threw a 0:31:33.840,0:31:37.760 message in here saying you know 0:31:35.679,0:31:39.919 how do you change that mindset when it 0:31:37.760,0:31:41.840 comes down to a reluctance to do 0:31:39.919,0:31:43.200 coaching 0:31:41.840,0:31:47.840 oh that’s a great question great 0:31:43.200,0:31:47.840 question thanks robert 0:31:50.960,0:31:56.720 i think um i i think it is culture 0:31:55.440,0:31:59.279 fundamentally it’s culture of the 0:31:56.720,0:32:02.720 organization um 0:31:59.279,0:32:05.200 and uh being being transparent and open 0:32:02.720,0:32:06.480 to i and i’ve done it for years i’ve 0:32:05.200,0:32:07.919 been very 0:32:06.480,0:32:09.519 you know i’ll close my arms you know 0:32:07.919,0:32:11.440 you’re giving me feedback 0:32:09.519,0:32:13.120 and i’ll be i don’t want to hear that 0:32:11.440,0:32:15.919 really yeah i don’t want that 0:32:13.120,0:32:18.240 i don’t want that feedback feedback’s 0:32:15.919,0:32:21.840 the food of champions but i’m not hungry 0:32:18.240,0:32:23.519 um and it’s um 0:32:21.840,0:32:25.919 you’ve got you’ve got to switch people’s 0:32:23.519,0:32:27.600 minds so that this is acceptable 0:32:25.919,0:32:29.600 and that that’s a that’s a brave thing 0:32:27.600,0:32:32.240 to do for an organization that is 0:32:29.600,0:32:33.600 driven by results that has to deliver 0:32:32.240,0:32:35.760 the quarterly numbers 0:32:33.600,0:32:36.720 to suddenly say well we’re gonna we’re 0:32:35.760,0:32:39.919 gonna be a little bit 0:32:36.720,0:32:42.799 more inclusive a bit more 0:32:39.919,0:32:44.240 uh supportive uh rather than just 0:32:42.799,0:32:46.240 charging off the numbers but 0:32:44.240,0:32:48.080 but but ultimately i think when charging 0:32:46.240,0:32:48.880 up the numbers you end up measuring the 0:32:48.080,0:32:51.279 wrong things 0:32:48.880,0:32:53.279 you end up with people tick box 0:32:51.279,0:32:53.840 exercises i’ve done 27 meetings this 0:32:53.279,0:32:57.279 week 0:32:53.840,0:33:00.640 i have 15 deals in the pipeline 0:32:57.279,0:33:02.880 great uh let’s have a look at quality 0:33:00.640,0:33:04.960 let’s let’s let’s see what’s going on 0:33:02.880,0:33:07.120 what’s real what’s not real i think 0:33:04.960,0:33:08.320 i think um again it comes back to that 0:33:07.120,0:33:12.000 that data point 0:33:08.320,0:33:12.960 you have data points that don’t that are 0:33:12.000,0:33:14.720 meaningless 0:33:12.960,0:33:16.480 uh they don’t tell you the true state of 0:33:14.720,0:33:18.399 play in the business 0:33:16.480,0:33:20.720 so i mean what i’m taking from that phil 0:33:18.399,0:33:22.399 is you know culturally we need to build 0:33:20.720,0:33:25.519 a culture that 0:33:22.399,0:33:28.080 first off respects uh 0:33:25.519,0:33:29.279 having time for that coaching where the 0:33:28.080,0:33:31.919 senior leaders 0:33:29.279,0:33:33.039 demonstrated as you touched upon earlier 0:33:31.919,0:33:34.640 where we’re not simply 0:33:33.039,0:33:35.840 taking the numbers but we’re really 0:33:34.640,0:33:36.960 trying to understand what they’re 0:33:35.840,0:33:39.200 telling us 0:33:36.960,0:33:40.320 and both the quantity and the quality of 0:33:39.200,0:33:41.919 all those numbers 0:33:40.320,0:33:44.159 and if we do those sorts of things 0:33:41.919,0:33:45.360 that’s a start at least towards changing 0:33:44.159,0:33:49.120 the culture and 0:33:45.360,0:33:51.600 hearts and minds of everybody involved 0:33:49.120,0:33:52.880 it’s just not it’s nice it’s just not 0:33:51.600,0:33:55.279 not that simple 0:33:52.880,0:33:56.880 no it’s a hard it’s a hard thing to do 0:33:55.279,0:33:57.679 it’s a hard thing to do it’s easy to 0:33:56.880,0:34:00.960 articulate 0:33:57.679,0:34:01.679 perhaps but very hard and a lot of hard 0:34:00.960,0:34:06.640 work 0:34:01.679,0:34:08.720 to make it happen yeah know 0:34:06.640,0:34:09.679 this was wonderful that’s been great 0:34:08.720,0:34:11.520 talking john 0:34:09.679,0:34:12.800 it’s been fantastic talking thank you 0:34:11.520,0:34:14.480 robin thank you everybody 0:34:12.800,0:34:16.000 who took time to out of their day to 0:34:14.480,0:34:19.119 listen in uh 0:34:16.000,0:34:21.040 reach out to phil on linkedin and 0:34:19.119,0:34:23.679 tell him you need him to help you figure 0:34:21.040,0:34:25.359 out your attention strategy 0:34:23.679,0:34:29.760 all right phil thank you so much sean 0:34:25.359,0:34:29.760 thank you have a great day thank you